The Characters suck. There is little to no interaction between them, and the storyline as a whole suffers because of it.

Think about it, who are all the cool characters? The judges, the soldier who helps you (early on, don't remember his name, he joins as a guest and has a big 2h'er), Reddas.

Some of them would be sweet to have in party (well I can see why no judges of course), but instead we are left with characters like Penelo who add nothing to the story. The story could be the exact same w/ just Ashe + Balthier + the rabbit chick (maybe). Vaan is the main character? Wrong, Ashe is clearly who the story develops around. I think Square Enix was really trying to pull off a no romance storyline but so far it has sucked. (I'm about 90% done w/ the game) .

The fighting is better, the liscense + gambit system, all fairly well done, but the lack of storyline and lameness of characters keeps me from being addicted to this game.

Unless the storyline dosn't really get underway w/ untill the last 10% of the game the storyline is about to be the worst of any FF I've played yet.

Anybody else agree?

or at least answer this, WTF is the point of Penelo in this game? Unless something major happens from 90% to completion, she is good for the first 20m when she kind of explains Vaans background through dialogue. That is it.

Edit: Storyline might be better then X-2.

The story IS better then FFx-2 and a lot of them it is just different then most players are use to instead of it focusing on the Characters like past FFs have done it instead focouses on Poltics and war. Character interaction is great but it doesn't appear to be that way because of how dragged out it can become due to Hunts leveling Lp farming and the like it can literally put 12 hours between a Story line part. Also plain losing your way can do that as well.

Penelo does bring something to the plot usually in the interactions between Larsa and the team is what I rememeber though it has been a little bit since I played the game. Vaan is the Main character because he is unintrested observer in this game his point of view is paramount in most cases Ashe is the Leading lady who most of the story moves around and her choices are drastic factors to the story but the Main character is still Vaan since the idea wasn't for the player to be in control of history but rather an observer.

In short the game isn't like FFX where you got deluged in Story line nor is it like FFIX where the main focous was the Characters. It is a group trying to bring back a Fallen kingdom while bigger nastier things are trying to use them. It is all poltics which a lot of people don't get fully or don't see all the little details. Play the game a second time around and the plot will make ALOT more sense then on the first Also try to play a speed game to help since as I said the story movement can get dragged out due to all the sidequests.

Also where are you in the game saying 90% means nothing since I have run into people who think Raithwalls tomb is the end of the game due to the time. Let me clue you in on something 60 hours is the max time I have seen for a Speed run so far and even that wasn't all that much of a speed run. Myself I have the game finished and 90% complete on ALL SIDEQUESTS with a total of 100 hours or so if I ever get to finishing the 100% I will most likely be at 120 or so in time and mine is almost Speed run since I firgued out tricks near the beginning. So tell us where you are Story wise.

The story and characters seemed to have a lot of potential, but it never really went anywhere because there weren't enough cutscenes. Most final fantasies have cutscenes almost every five steps which really helps develop the characters and storyline, but FF12 more or less ignored the characters. I didn't mind the politics (the similarities to star wars in the beginning were a bit annoying) but I hope the next final fantasy gives the viewer a little more emotional attachment to what happens to the characters.

Both Vaan AND Penelo were pretty irrelevant to the story line. :( At least the battle system was awesome.

Vaan was imporant one FFXII set it up for Revanent Wings A DS sequal. Two Vaan was Ashe's Sounding board through a Lot of the game such as the Giraff village and Giruvegan as well as several other places also Vaan provided the Glue between all the Characters Penelo, Balither Fran, and Ashe Basch are all connected by Vaan. Penelo is there for Vaan simiple as that. Balither and Fran came because Vaan hired them with the Shard as a reward. Basch for his grief over reks and his desire to set things right as much as he can. Ashe because they have a similar goal in life to stop just being alive and finding the reason why they live.
As I said Vaan is the observer he is not irrelevant but rather an imporant piece and glue for the game None of the events in the game wouldn't have gone as planned if Vaan didn't decide to steal from the Palace. Balither and Fran would have stolen the shard and ran off, Ashe would have been lost in the Sewer either killed or picked up by Vayne. Penelo would still be in Rabanastre. And Basch would still be locked up. Vaan was the start of the whole mess and an intregal part of the Story on Ashe's side of it.

I see what you mean about him being "the glue" but he wasn't a very active protagonist. After the first twenty or so hours, it seems like he's regulated to making random observations while the other characters, particularly Ashe, play a much more obvious role in the plot. Tidus in FFX was an observer too, but he directly influenced the storyline, while Vaan's role in counseling Ashe in the pharos, etc. could have been taken over by Basch.

Could have but it would have been lacking. Vaan wanted Revenge in the beginning rememeber so for him to counsel aganist it later made a better impact.
As for his random observations he didn't those Observations where on the characters events and real ideas on how to go on. I wish I could give a better account on this but I need to replay the game again to really give you examples.
Also Tidus wasn't an observer at all while he wasn't the main Protagonist like Yuna he was very cruciel to the plot and often forced HIS views on the choices like Saving Yuna Seymour and several other places. As well as Sin had a personal stake with him and opened up for him and did several things for him like the Mihiad I belive it was called the operation to kill Sin using Machines. Sin came to show Tidus what Sin is and does. Sin showed up in Zarakened to see if Tidus had rejected the final Aeon. In short he is Like Ashe he creates and moves the plot. Vaan only helped push the plot while observing the movement this created. Vaan is just overshadowed and Underappericated because One people think he is a Stupid blonde Pretty boy and because of Ashe. Vaan has more depth and affect then people give him credit for.

I kind of said that wrong... I felt Tidus's role was as an observer not because that was all he did, but because his narration on events and characters was part of what made him such a great hero. Initially, he was presented as an outsider observing the Yuna's quest, but evolved to have a more personal stake in the journey.

Vaan on the other hand... Had he been presented as a supporting character, I think I wouldn't have been as confused by him, but since the game makes him out to be the main character (represents the main party in cities, first character after Reks, etc.), it is expected that he would display more leadership or decisiveness. He doesn't seem to go through the hero's journey; his grief at Rek's death is overcome fairly quickly, so he doesn't have the emotional struggle throughout the game that would have made him a more dynamic character.

hehe, on first glance he DOES look pretty, but I kind of forgot about that after I heard his voice.

Sorry, accidentally double posted.

What you should rememeber is the fact Reks has been dead for 2 years by that time people get over death pretty easily they have to espically in war time. As for the Struggle and grieve that we see that is just misplaced emotions by Vaan a common pratice of most people espically when a Lost loved one is concerned.

I agree it seems like he should be the Leader but he is just the eyes and ears of the player since he is the only one you have start to finish so it makes since for him to represent the Party though it would have been even more cool to go around as Ashe or Fran.

Hmm, somehow I forgot he'd been dead that long. Sorry!

It would have been cool to switch viewpoints outside of battle. I probably would have spent most of my time as Balthier or Fran if they'd done that. It'd have been kind of cool to see the NPC reaction to some of the characters, like Basch.

Wish they'd put in that feature where you can interact with the other main characters in a city. I used to go crazy with that in FFX.

I actually thought FFXII was the best in the FF series. I really liked FFVII & FFX but I thought this game beat them in everything. I like the battle system, the characters, the storyline and the amount of bosses and the scenery. I also liked how they had levels for the characters unlike FFX's Sphere grid. Thats annoyed me to death. I also like the license board.

btw i just defeated the dragon boss before entering the Pharos. (I had to check a game walkthrough to get through some dungeon and pharos was like step 50/52, but I heard it takes a long time which leads me to my estimation of 90%.

The thing is I like sharing the mindset of the characters. Zidane + Squall heck even Tidus are all characters you can relate too. (Cloud sorta I guess).

Vaan started out great, but after meating up w/ Ashe he is just a bystander.
What ever happened to him being able to see Ashe's Husband, and then all the sudden he dosn't? If this is answered later on, plz say so and don't answer, but otherwise I don't get it. It seemed like that was the connection betwen Vaan and Ashe, but that part of the story has dropped off the map.

Also I have not dont a ton of hunts, (42 hrs in) so that is not the only reason the storyline seems weak, but really the storyline isnt. I get the storyline and I like the judges and crap. Just the main character interaction sucks.

btw: Ashe's dead husband would of been a kick ass Main Character.

No it is explained because Vaan wanted his brother back with longing he saw a ghost he says later in the Village of the Giraff that he saw his brother but realized he was being an idiot and running away from his problems. Ashe was doing the same thing she was so wraped up in revenge she stopped living that is why she could see him none of the other characters had that need and want hence why they couldn't see him.
Your location is roughly 80% to 83% done on plot by the time you finish Pharos you will be 90% when you go into the Sky fortress you will then hit 95% while the end naturally gets 100%.
The connection will come back by the time you finish Pharos before you talk about character interactions finish the game then come back there are ALOT of things and twistes to come.
As for the Characters yeah the interaction is thin in some areas but by the end it will change quite a bit. Also the Main point of the story isn't the Main characters it is the scenes behind the events we are just windows into those events. It is kinda like the old saying the winners write history? Well this is the History before it is written and we write the History so to speak.

As for Ralister no I think he would have sucked big time. Why? One he doesn't think about what is best but rather he gets wrapped up in revenge at the end Basch an Experinced Military commander told him to retreat he refused and instead fought on in the memory of his father those are the guys that get you killed for no reason. Also he doesn't strike me as some one who could look past someones Background but that is just my impression of him. But really I just don't like the pretty boy period.

Yes thats one thing that I hate SE for. Since FFX all the main boy characters (Tidus, Vaan) have been blonde, non muscly and like Revaninja said it's the pretty boy period. Why can't they bring someone like Cloud or Auron or Barret out. Now they struck fear in the enemys. Is it just me or does Vaan have anorexia or is that a six pack? Cause if it's anoerxia I can understand cause his starving and got no money and verything but if it's a six pack then that just really random. What do you guys think???

No it is explained because Vaan wanted his brother back with longing he saw a ghost he says later in the Village of the Giraff that he saw his brother but realized he was being an idiot and running away from his problems. Ashe was doing the same thing she was so wraped up in revenge she stopped living that is why she could see him none of the other characters had that need and want hence why they couldn't see him.
Your location is roughly 80% to 83% done on plot by the time you finish Pharos you will be 90% when you go into the Sky fortress you will then hit 95% while the end naturally gets 100%.
The connection will come back by the time you finish Pharos before you talk about character interactions finish the game then come back there are ALOT of things and twistes to come.
As for the Characters yeah the interaction is thin in some areas but by the end it will change quite a bit. Also the Main point of the story isn't the Main characters it is the scenes behind the events we are just windows into those events. It is kinda like the old saying the winners write history? Well this is the History before it is written and we write the History so to speak.

As for Ralister no I think he would have sucked big time. Why? One he doesn't think about what is best but rather he gets wrapped up in revenge at the end Basch an Experinced Military commander told him to retreat he refused and instead fought on in the memory of his father those are the guys that get you killed for no reason. Also he doesn't strike me as some one who could look past someones Background but that is just my impression of him. But really I just don't like the pretty boy period.

Thanks this is all good info. I said I wasn't done, but the thing is that I was posting why I can't find myself playing for long hours, and it was cuz of the characters. Good to know it picks up during Pharos tho!

Also I heard Pharos is very long, plz tell me there are some save points ><

There are alot of them don't worry its just getting to them that is the problem. Your true worry should be Subterra which is a Hidden area of Pharos you get after you beat Pharos VERY nasty place that.

Yer it is. I'm lvl 65 and I had 8 bull Abbondons gang up on my ARRRRRRRR! I just used a quickning chain to whip them out but still pretty freaky! But the Subterra give you some fantastic EXP 3400-4000 exp per kill with a embroided tippit is fantastic. My guys have leveled up so quickly!

The story IS better then FFx-2 and a lot of them it is just different then most players are use to instead of it focusing on the Characters like past FFs have done it instead focouses on Poltics and war. Character interaction is great but it doesn't appear to be that way because of how dragged out it can become due to Hunts leveling Lp farming and the like it can literally put 12 hours between a Story line part. Also plain losing your way can do that as well.

Penelo does bring something to the plot usually in the interactions between Larsa and the team is what I rememeber though it has been a little bit since I played the game. Vaan is the Main character because he is unintrested observer in this game his point of view is paramount in most cases Ashe is the Leading lady who most of the story moves around and her choices are drastic factors to the story but the Main character is still Vaan since the idea wasn't for the player to be in control of history but rather an observer.

In short the game isn't like FFX where you got deluged in Story line nor is it like FFIX where the main focous was the Characters. It is a group trying to bring back a Fallen kingdom while bigger nastier things are trying to use them. It is all poltics which a lot of people don't get fully or don't see all the little details. Play the game a second time around and the plot will make ALOT more sense then on the first Also try to play a speed game to help since as I said the story movement can get dragged out due to all the sidequests.

Also where are you in the game saying 90% means nothing since I have run into people who think Raithwalls tomb is the end of the game due to the time. Let me clue you in on something 60 hours is the max time I have seen for a Speed run so far and even that wasn't all that much of a speed run. Myself I have the game finished and 90% complete on ALL SIDEQUESTS with a total of 100 hours or so if I ever get to finishing the 100% I will most likely be at 120 or so in time and mine is almost Speed run since I firgued out tricks near the beginning. So tell us where you are Story wise.

Wow okay i've been playing it for 87 hours it's my first time, I spent 20 hours on the stupid place i'm at now. Which is where you have to touch the glyphs in order to get from place to place and if you fail twice you have to fight a crapload of monsters. It's really dragging me down I can't figure it out and it's starting to bore me. Could you help me out?

Wrong place and I already answered ask those question in Q&A thread.

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From a battle perspective, I think this was one of the greatest FFs ever. Other than that, I felt underwhelmed once finishing the game. I beat it nearly three months ago, and haven't picked it up once. The story was good, but felt lacking in certain points. But any story is better than X-2.

The Characters suck. There is little to no interaction between them, and the storyline as a whole suffers because of it.

Think about it, who are all the cool characters? The judges, the soldier who helps you (early on, don't remember his name, he joins as a guest and has a big 2h'er), Reddas.

Some of them would be sweet to have in party (well I can see why no judges of course), but instead we are left with characters like Penelo who add nothing to the story. The story could be the exact same w/ just Ashe + Balthier + the rabbit chick (maybe). Vaan is the main character? Wrong, Ashe is clearly who the story develops around. I think Square Enix was really trying to pull off a no romance storyline but so far it has sucked. (I'm about 90% done w/ the game) .

The fighting is better, the liscense + gambit system, all fairly well done, but the lack of storyline and lameness of characters keeps me from being addicted to this game.

Unless the storyline dosn't really get underway w/ untill the last 10% of the game the storyline is about to be the worst of any FF I've played yet.

Anybody else agree?

or at least answer this, WTF is the point of Penelo in this game? Unless something major happens from 90% to completion, she is good for the first 20m when she kind of explains Vaans background through dialogue. That is it.

Edit: Storyline might be better then X-2.

I'm inclined to agree with you on just about all accounts. After spending so much time plugging away at this game, all of the things that I love about final fantasy games seem to have been discarded in a seemingly hasty fashion. While the gameplay was interesting and fun at first, the challenge was disapeared and character specialization become a moot issue. Why would I place my characters in such danger, when I could have 6 perfectly capable tankmages that I don't have to ever worry about?

Also The story line was bad. The lack of character development is not something that can be overlooked just because the focus of the story was on the major conflicts between waring nations. The suikoden series never seems to lose sight of this. While there isn't necessary a main character in FF12, there's no excuse for having poorly develpoed characters. There was no since of cohesion and just cause for my party's semi-enthusiasm.

Also the music can be equated something along the lines of background noise. I just don't remember it at all, which is a shame because it's beautifully wriiten, composed, and executed. But the songs are boring. Because of the abscence of battle music I was looking forward to some wonderful and emotional overworld tracks. I was sadly mistaken. I do feel that the voice acting was great however.

The plot is not bad by any stretch of the imanigation. It is very complicated so ALOT of people miss the little stuff that brings it all into focous one of the reasons why I say you have to play again to see all of them since most times you miss them because they aren't easily understood or in the Foreground so people often dismiss those little hints and meanings not quite getting them. Like Range he missed out on why Vaan stopped seeing Ralisters ghost and gave a Hint on what he truly is which you find out at the End of Pharos.

The characters ARE well developed most people just don't see that. We are used to watching ALOT of character Development in FF like FFVIII Squall going from a Loner to a respected Leader for example, Daggers search for her own self worth for example in FFIX, and Tidus understanding of his own feelings in FFX. In short we are used to lots of screen time to Develop characters when that is not what is done here by any stretch. What is done is what is called a Piece character development usually seen in Complex books basically what happens is that every event the character is in a Piece of his or her development happens sometimes its something major like Vaan realizing he was running away other times it is simiply his ability to get along with Larsa even though he should hate the empire. In short Piece development can be thought of as buliding something sometimes a Major foundation gets placed others a few bricks but every single time something gets laid done. And because it is happening every single time without a Focous on it usually it gets missed hence why once again play the game through again you will see so much more character development then you thought was there in the first play.

The plot is not bad by any stretch of the imanigation. It is very complicated so ALOT of people miss the little stuff that brings it all into focous one of the reasons why I say you have to play again to see all of them since most times you miss them because they aren't easily understood or in the Foreground so people often dismiss those little hints and meanings not quite getting them. Like Range he missed out on why Vaan stopped seeing Ralisters ghost and gave a Hint on what he truly is which you find out at the End of Pharos. The story wasn't that complicated, and what you might consider to be subtleties of text i consider poor script in this story. All of the oh moments and undercurrents of development were left as they were and were either partialy resolved of resolved in most obvious and uninteresting ways.As a result man any of the relationships between the characters were underdeveloped as well a the relationship between the charaters and the rest of the world. Now I do belive that the story has some amazing setup, and some of the situations are brimming with potential, but there was no followthrough like in other RPGS, not just the FF series. (FF8 had a few similar problems as well.)


The characters ARE well developed most people just don't see that. We are used to watching ALOT of character Development in FF like FFVIII Squall going from a Loner to a respected Leader for example, Daggers search for her own self worth for example in FFIX, and Tidus understanding of his own feelings in FFX. In short we are used to lots of screen time to Develop characters when that is not what is done here by any stretch. What is done is what is called a Piece character development usually seen in Complex books basically what happens is that every event the character is in a Piece of his or her development happens sometimes its something major like Vaan realizing he was running away other times it is simiply his ability to get along with Larsa even though he should hate the empire. In short Piece development can be thought of as buliding something sometimes a Major foundation gets placed others a few bricks but every single time something gets laid done. And because it is happening every single time without a Focous on it usually it gets missed hence why once again play the game through again you will see so much more character development then you thought was there in the first play. No one's saying that the characters have to be similar to ther rpg archetypes for the chracters to be well developed. As for Vaan, if he's not the main character but more part of an ensemble cast, than he needs a purpose for existence. All characters in all stories must serve some function and have a reason for being included. And for the story to be good the characters purposes must be interesting and compelling. This is where the game fell short. While the characters had reason for continuing on their journey (except for Penelo, if her reasoning was to be close to Vaan or to protect him or to maintain their realtionship, they never told us which is just stupid.), but their reasoning was held together with shoestring adhesion. They almost got there with Balthier, however. But the moments that were supposed to make you say "OH my God" didn't really have the impact. It was more like "oh, that's cool".

Wrong I think VERY wrong. First Vaan's reason to be there is to FIND a reason he is seeing what is out there and finding where he Belongs he states as much in Gariff village. Ashe to reclaim her kingdom there isn't any doubt there. Balither orignally for the treasure but later it was to close his past and stop running from it. Fran is there for Balither as his partner. Basch to fufill his duty to Ashe Vossler and himself as a Knight he has never stopped and will do all to continue to protect Dalmasca. Penelo is there for Vaan she says she is his partner so she goes where he goes. Each has a reason Penelo is Navie, Basch is Duty and Honor, Balither is experince, Fran is mystcism, Ashe willpower, and Vaan the eyes of the player. I have said in another thread that Vaan has always been meant to be an observer and quite sounding board. Ashe is the Leading lady but Vaan is the explorer. Since he doesn't have Balithers experince he finds out what we need to know as players he serves a VERY imporant part the truth seeker.

As for your 'Opnion' on the story okay its obvious you think this is how the story goes but I can tell you the story is complicated and well written from the movements or Ondor to Vaynes every move. As for your not solved parts many of them Weren't meant to be Balither's father for example never gets solved. Basch's innocenes by judgement from Vaan is solved by the fact Basch is not a man to do this and several scenes point this out as well as the fact they see Gabranth's face helps. Go back look again the game Left a lot of unresolved parts on purpouse just like any game does it helps it be more realistic if a game solves all problems and has it all in a nice neat package then it feels Hollow and that is the truth. But the game's plot both yours and mine opnion is just that an opnion others will like it and others will hate it just like any game.

If a story resolves all of it's problems, it does not automatically make it hollow. That's just wrong. There are plenty of stories that leave things open and are fulfilling, and likewise there are others that do the same with completely closed issues.

I don't see how listing the characters individual purpose proves anything. In my above post I clearly stated that most of the characters had reasons for action. My complaint is that their development of said reasons are thin and not well fleshed out. That in turn created boring and uninteresting characters that I wasn't excited about playing.

While that is your opnion I think you are really not paying attention to my words. The reasons I stated the Characters reasons why they are on the quest is to show their reasons aren't thin. I gave a reason for each which they each have a plot point that really underscores why they fight on. Basch Pharos, Ashe Pharos, Vaan Gariff, Fran eyrut, Penelo Ondor's mansion, Balither Archadia to mention a few no spoiler parts that give a good example. They each do have a fleshed out reasons for being there with Penelo and Fran having the thinest of them all everyone else is VERY fleshed out. I don't know how to describe it to you since the game makes it a big part of focous for several sections of the game or the entire game for the Characters. So truth be told it seems like you missed some of the major plot points for the game. To be honest you are so far the first I have run into who has said ALL the characters have thin reasons. Usually it is Penelo's reactions and thin character interactions that people bring up.

As for the Hollow story plot no wrapping up things doesn't make it hollow you are right there but making everything resolved does. It gives it a campy everything is just peachy and great feeling that wasn't the focous of the game which was the Unknown. You also say the game needs to finish points of the story but give no examples at all of what you mean you said Balithers father once but that has always meant to be unresolved as the game underscores Balither and his dad have never had a good relationship so in the end it fits that they don't resolve anything. You see some things ARE resolved even in their unresolved states. Give me examples because I can't give form to words and meaning on my own. The best I can come up with and the reason why I say a completly resolved story is Hollow is that there needs to be unresolved issues to give real depth to the plot since in life there is ALWAYS unresolved issues. If you finish them all up and in a clear way the plot is usually thin and boring to start with all you are doing is tying a big red ribbon on it. That is why I said it rings hollow to me. Also I don't know a SINGLE book and game that wraps up every issue and plot point in it and I have a Vast fictional Libary with Works Tolkin, Jorden, Stackpole, King, Clancy, Salvatore to name some of the big name authors I have read. Not a single one of their works finishes all the plot points they mention or make a reference to. Same goes with most games there is usually something left out or incomplete.

That's a very valid point. It is a lot more realistic for there to be loose ends when stories are finished, but I was just pointing out that having those loose ends doesn't necessarily give a story depth. Nor does being realisitc necessarily make a story good. But that's more of a sidenote to the discussion at hand.

As for the character development in the story, I felt that it was lacking in emotion. While Ashe was sad/confused, and Vaan was angry heading towards acceptance, and Balthier was . . .i don't know slightly perturbed a few times, I really never felt like the characters wre that involved in the story. They were templates. Not all of them, just the main six we get to control. The cids were great. Both of them were interesting and animated, but underused. We needed much more character to bad guy threats and connections. Vayne was just kinda the bad guy because they told us he was. They never showed us. Despite what you say is in his speech, he's just another obvious eivil guy figure. From the beginning you can tell. And when he "does something evil" its more of a given, and there's not that much weight behind it. Fran was indiffernt to the fact that her entire clan turned their back on her. Despite the coolness of her personality and the "never show emotion" attitude that seems to manifest itself within the majority of her culture, it would have been nice to see her get sad, angry, or happy. She flips out because of the mist pumping through her veins that one time, but then we don't EVER have to worry about it again? That could have been an interesting obstacle for us to overcome while we continued on our journey, but nothing became of is. None of the charaters really changed except for Ashe, and even then it wa only slightly. Actually I'd say that she almost changed, but then she reverted back to her more purse self. To some extent Balthier changed no arguments here about that. There was not much rise and fall of character development, plus there were very few personal hurdles for them to overcome that we were witness to. (excluding Ashe and Balthier of course) The purposes of the characters that you mentioned are all modest implications that just aren't backed up by actual indepth storytelling.

I think you are wrong. I will get into this later I don't really have the time right now and I am sorry about that. But here is a Tidbit that you should consider what if Vaan, Balither, Penelo, Basch, and Fran aren't the Main characters? What if the focous has always been on the rebellion and this just fleshes out the events BEHIND it? Let me know what you think on that I have Bloodwork to get to.

I think you are wrong. I will get into this later I don't really have the time right now and I am sorry about that. But here is a Tidbit that you should consider what if Vaan, Balither, Penelo, Basch, and Fran aren't the Main characters? What if the focous has always been on the rebellion and this just fleshes out the events BEHIND it? Let me know what you think on that I have Bloodwork to get to.

lol I apolgize for this upfront but I'm going to answer you questions with a question at first. Why do secondary characters have to be underdeveloped? If the main story is about the rebellion, and the characters are just there to drive us into an understanding about this major turn of historical events, then wouldn't it be prudent for the story teller to create well rounded secondary characters to give the rebellion that much more impact?

But didn't they? Larsa, Reddas, Gabranth, Al-cid, Vayne, Ondor and Cid? Aren't they well rounded, deep History, and great characters? I truly think so. And they really move the plot so to answer your question the Secondarys are well devolped and they are the real shakers and movers of the game.

Now about your earlier post since I am done bleeding into a tube and going into a Jar. Now first Fran isn't indifferent she regerts her choice as is examplified by her words 'a nice lie that' when asking her sister to talk to the woods for her. She just keeps it bottled for the most part but there are times when it comes out.
Ashe is not sad Revenege filled yes, Confused yes, Angsting yes, but sad no. She is tormented by all the in-justices she feels heaped on her from her lost love her fathers death to her lost kingdom. She is finally given a chance to avenege her self but the problem is she knows deep in her heart that she isn't that person that is why she is wish washy. As for her revert no that is just the return of her confidence lets look at the facts SPOLIERS Vossler betrays her, she loses the only thing that can reclaim her throne, Her rebellion is put down, she is confronted by her dead loves ghost , and she is confronted by the man she thought killed her father as a Loyal knight SPOLIERS yeah I think she has a right to be shaken up but near the end she finds the truth of herself and regains her lost Confidence.

As for Vayne he is not evil funny eh? What he is trying to do is remake the world and destroy the Yoke the gods placed on man 'placing history back into the hands of man' so to speak. His goals this whole entire time has been to create a free peaceful empire. The way he sees is though is he has to destroy the rebellion and then destroy himself putting Larsa on the throne. He makes claims several times that Larsa will need Gabranth as a loyal knight when he is emperor my guess is that Vayne was going to make himself into a tyrannt then let Larsa come in as a Savior to make the peaceful world. It might have worked too.
As for Personal Hurdles there was Plenty though they focoused on Balither Ashe and Vaan. Vaan with the truth of his dreams, Ashe the good of her country, Balither his past. But the other characters had their own as well. Fran the deeds done, Penelo the Unknown, Basch duty in dishonor.

Everyone had their own Hurdles some WHERE focouse on more then others but each had their own.

The story was good, the characters were good. Developed enough for me. Even X-2's story was great to a certain degree. No FF plot is bad, just that some people "want" certain things in every storyline, like over complicated backgrounds etc, and it's just not going to happen. I hate over complicatedness which is why XII seemed perfect to me. Not that I hate overcomplicatedness in general..but I like a nice break from it.

But didn't they? Larsa, Reddas, Gabranth, Al-cid, Vayne, Ondor and Cid? Aren't they well rounded, deep History, and great characters? I truly think so. And they really move the plot so to answer your question the Secondarys are well devolped and they are the real shakers and movers of the game.

You asked me "But here is a Tidbit that you should consider what if Vaan, Balither, Penelo, Basch, and Fran aren't the Main characters?". Considering them as such I asked you "Why do secondary characters have to be underdeveloped?" I wasn't refering to Larso Reddas and the rest, if anything I would have preffered to play those characters are they showed signs of more involvement with the story and better development. I'd also like to point out that if the characters aren't part of the main storyline than character development is that much more important to make the player care about the characters.

Now about your earlier post since I am done bleeding into a tube and going into a Jar. Now first Fran isn't indifferent she regerts her choice as is examplified by her words 'a nice lie that' when asking her sister to talk to the woods for her. She just keeps it bottled for the most part but there are times when it comes out.
Ashe is not sad Revenege filled yes, Confused yes, Angsting yes, but sad no. She is tormented by all the in-justices she feels heaped on her from her lost love her fathers death to her lost kingdom. She is finally given a chance to avenege her self but the problem is she knows deep in her heart that she isn't that person that is why she is wish washy. As for her revert no that is just the return of her confidence lets look at the facts SPOLIERS Vossler betrays her, she loses the only thing that can reclaim her throne, Her rebellion is put down, she is confronted by her dead loves ghost , and she is confronted by the man she thought killed her father as a Loyal knight SPOLIERS yeah I think she has a right to be shaken up but near the end she finds the truth of herself and regains her lost Confidence.

As for Vayne he is not evil funny eh? What he is trying to do is remake the world and destroy the Yoke the gods placed on man 'placing history back into the hands of man' so to speak. His goals this whole entire time has been to create a free peaceful empire. The way he sees is though is he has to destroy the rebellion and then destroy himself putting Larsa on the throne. He makes claims several times that Larsa will need Gabranth as a loyal knight when he is emperor my guess is that Vayne was going to make himself into a tyrannt then let Larsa come in as a Savior to make the peaceful world. It might have worked too.
As for Personal Hurdles there was Plenty though they focoused on Balither Ashe and Vaan. Vaan with the truth of his dreams, Ashe the good of her country, Balither his past. But the other characters had their own as well. Fran the deeds done, Penelo the Unknown, Basch duty in dishonor.

Everyone had their own Hurdles some WHERE focouse on more then others but each had their own.

As for the second part of your post I think we're doomed to disagree. Those things you mentioned weren't well explored and developed in my eyes. I wanted much more understanding of the characters, more tension in the plot, and more tough choices. It felt like a very typical story that wasn't told as well as others stories have in the past.

Sandal I would love to comment on your first part of the Debate but I don't have the time today and I will be in Surgery tomorrow and I don't know what that is going to do to me. I may be able to respond on Friday but I want you to know I have seen your words and will have an apporiate response just not today.

GO SUIKODEN! USE YOUR TRUE RUNE OF FIRE!

Sandal I would love to comment on your first part of the Debate but I don't have the time today and I will be in Surgery tomorrow and I don't know what that is going to do to me. I may be able to respond on Friday but I want you to know I have seen your words and will have an apporiate response just not today.

Best wishes on the surgery, Rev.

I can't get into the story either. It seems completely "Star Oceanish" in the sense that the whole game revolves around pointless request and fetch through outrageously huge dungeons that add very little to the story line and character development.

Also, the whole "Making FF accessable to other people" type of battle system is a joke I think. I really hope they realise what they've done.

PS-- The music is pretty horrible too.

The music isn't horrible though? Then again, you can't please everyone can you. ;P Granted, the music isn't everyones cup of tea, but it isn't horrible.

Considering Uematsu's departure, I think the composer did pretty well in regards to the music. It couldn't compare to Uematsu's, but some parts of the sound track were pretty good. Although.. I recall someone mentioning before that the memorable songs from the game were ones from older FFs that Uematsu had previously composed which the new composer merely redid. No clue if that's true or not. What i'd really like to see is SquareEnix hiring Yasunori Mitsuda for a future final fantasy game, at least for part of the soundtrack. I can't imagine the masterpiece it would be if Mitsuda and Uematsu collaborated on a project again. If you don't recognize Mitsuda, he did the soundtrack for Chronocross and part of Chronotrigger. The soundtrack he did in Chronochross might even be better than some of Uematsu's work depending on your taste, though it doesn't have quite the wide variety of music styles as say, FFVIII did.

As far as the story goes from a gameplay aspect, another thing that bothered me was the usage of gray characters. I'm all for gray characters normally -- i've become a fan of George Martin, and if you've ever read his Song of Ice & Fire series, you know that he is big on characters having actual motivations and not merely being 'evil' for the sake of it (in most cases.) However, when i'm playing a game, it just doesn't feel right to peg the bad guy as 'somewhat good' and then slay him as part of the end of the game. In the cutscenes before the final battle, I wasn't really even sure if Vayne didn't truly have the right idea all along, though perhaps his methods were a little questionable. "Putting the reigns of history back into the hands of man"? Is that necessarily a bad thing compared with being puppets of the Occuria? It sure sounds good. Yet, I killed him for that noble idea in the game, and everyone laughed and gleed as a result.

There will be spoilers in this post, just so you know.

OK... First, I'll say that I liked FFX-2 and it's story... It was very emotional and it really got to me, and that is what I like...
As for the FFXII soundtrack, I think it's by far worse than X & X-2, but not too bad...

Now, I agree both with Revaninja and Sandal. My first impression of the game was that it is way better than FFX, but as the story progressed, I realized that I was wrong... In my opinion, the storyline is too short and lacked emotions. Most of the time you spend playing is doing the hunts and leveling up (which is preety boring in my opinion). But, since I am against comparing, let's not compare XII to X.

At first, I felt the same as Sandal. I still wonder why was Penelo supposed to be on the team and I used to think Vaan is not so important, too. But when I read what Revaninja said, I realized I was wrong.

If there wasn't for Vaan, a lot of things would never happen... He is a child longing for adventure... He wants to become a sky pirate and to avenge his brother's death. He decides to sneak into the Palace (forgot why exactly) and steals the Dawn (?) Shard and then he meets up with a sky pirate. Since he longs for adventure, and beeing a sky pirate is his dream, it is logical that he will team up with them. Throughout the game, he changes. He realizes that revenge makes no sense and sticks with Ashe, which is logical, I mean, who wouldn't? I agree that he is supposed to be the eyes of the character and I think he did a great job on that.
Penelo... Well, she got pulled in the story by accident, and decided to join the tam, because she loves Vaan a lot (as a brother, or a boy... irrelevant) and doesn't want anything to happen to him (not like she would protect him, but it's easier when she is around him...)
Balthier (my favourite, btw.) is, in my opinion, built up the best. He had a reason to join the team (money) but in time he realizes that he wants to set thing right and on the way he faces his past...
As for Fran (my second favourite), I think she is in love with Balthier (because of the scene at the Pharos) and she, normally, doesn't want to leave his side. What I didn't like about Fran is that her past is dealt with for a very short time... And even during that time, we don't see much of how she feels about it... Although, that might has been done on purpose... In life, we can't tell how one is feeling if that person doesn't wanna show it, and Fran doesn't.
Ashe doesn't need any explaining, for I think her role is clear.
Basch has been dishonoured and wants his honour back, although, at Pharos, he realises that that is not too important and says to Gabranth that he just wants to do the right thing for hope...

Anyway, I still think that the storyline was too short... But when I come to think about it, it is really great how they managed to tell the story in a great way and that we were able to learn so much about the characters inspite of the length of the storyline. I also like that they dealt with the motiv of revenge in such a great way.

I feel the same about this game. In fact, I haven't even played it in over two months... I haven't even beaten it yet. I was really hyped up about this game and pre-ordered it and everything but after about 40 hours I grew tired of the game and just quit altogether. :/ I need an actual story line to follow and character development to keep me interested. I don't need a whole lot of "Oh pretty pretty flashy graphix with a new battle system almost identical to FFXI's."

For me personally, in most other final fantasys it seemed like the game was like the story and you played the game to continue the story. in ffxii it was like the story was the game... um kind of hard to explain..

its like in the other final fantasies you played the game to see more of the story
then in ffxii u watched the story to play more of the game.

also the ability to skip cutscenes made it really feel more like this.

idk if any1 understands that, i suck at socializing lol

what im trying to say is the story in ffxii felt something like it was just something to keep the game going in between dungeons and stuff. I did enjoy the story though, it was very dark and mature compared to other games, but this isn't exactly good. lol

**and oh yeah, i cant believe someone thinks ff12 isnt great.. u suck thats all i have to say lol**

Hey guys, it's another worthless fancunt with atrocious grammar. :rolleyes:

Hey guys, it's another worthless fancunt with atrocious grammar. :rolleyes:

oh wait thats not what u really said it just sounded like that because you had my big ass fucking dick in your mouth while you were trying to say it.

fuckin idiot

Priceless. Simply priceless. I haven't seen a moron this juicy in ages.

"Priceless. Simply priceless. I haven't seen a moron this juicy in ages."

dude, stop trying to talk, ur starting to get saliva on my penis..

Utterly fixated on the idea of his dick in my mouth, isn't he? How amusing.

why wouldnt i be, im fucking disgusted that u wont get off it and so I need to tell the world to get it off my chest :(

why wouldnt i be, im fucking disgusted that u wont get it off and so I need to tell the world to get it off my chest :(

Fixed.

yes, retard im fixed on the idea that your stuck on my dick, is that a problem?

I think you have other issues to work out about yourself, such as your sexuality

You're the one who's practically begging me for a blowjob. Thus, your sexuality is the questionable one, Bunky.

Its funny how what you just said sounded almost like I want what your doing to me..

Assuming I interpreted your gibberish properly, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that soliciting a blowjob from me makes you a queer. A fag. A fairy. A hershey highwayman. A homosexual.

Knock it off guys...

Off-topic, but priceless.

Not that I didn't find that amusing Prak, but there was a decent debate going on here. You could always take it to PM to tell Cecil he's a worthless fancunt.

Also, I agree with this statement:

"Now, I agree both with Revaninja and Sandal. My first impression of the game was that it is way better than FFX, but as the story progressed, I realized that I was wrong... In my opinion, the storyline is too short and lacked emotions. Most of the time you spend playing is doing the hunts and leveling up (which is preety boring in my opinion). But, since I am against comparing, let's not compare XII to X. "

Think it was Milance that said that. The length of the game is fine in terms of hours. I haven't even finished yet, I'm on the Phon Coast and am 50+ hours in, but far too much of that has simply been fighting enemies and doing hunts. There isn't enough dialogue between characters as has been said. The relationship between certain characters (eg. Fran and Vaan, Basch and Balthier, Penelo and just about everyone) is almost non-existent in some cases and in others very simple.

When a game like is made not to focus on one horrendously evil enemy that needs to be destroyed a la FFVII or FFX, the game becomes centred on the characters rather than the need to eliminate this being. Therefore, in FFXII, the characters needed to be fully detailed, both in terms of their past, development, and goals. I understand the argument about FFXII being all about politics but without decent character development and interaction that isn't enough.

That's my main gripe with FFXII but there are significant gameplay gripes. I'll state the main one which sums up my opinion on FFXII's system. The Licence Board is pretty retarded. Why have the same number of licence points for defeating a Level 30 monster as defeating a Level 2 wolf in the Dalmasca Estersand? It's horrendously open to abuse, since killing 50 wolves to obtain 50 LP is far quicker than killing 50 beasts your own level to obtain the same amount of LP.

Teleporting between Save Crystals makes travel quick and easy too, so if you're at a pinch for LP, you can just pop over to Rabanastre, head out the nearest gate, start killing and within a few minutes hey presto your problem's solved.

This rant is not say that I don't like FFXII, but comparing it to X is wrong. X is the class of the series and outshines XII in nearly every department.

I agree that the LP system is messed up. LP should be awarded depending on the comparison of a foe's level to the characters average level. So were you to keep killing low level monsters, you would only get 1LP and high level monsters higher LP accordingly. Obviously, you would have to make certain squares on the licence board cost more in terms of LP, but it would drive you to fight higher level monsters for LP instead of grinding lower levels and going back and forward through the same screens (cough dalmasca estersand).

I actually like this game. Not more than VI, but still I like it. It's actually my 5th favorite FF. My only complaints about this game though is that the License Board should've been bigger and more Technicks should've been added.

ff12=great game... maybe not the best in the series but a great game nontheless.. battle system is fantastic, realistic. good storyline. there is lack of character dvlp. when compared to ff4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10. everything else is really cool. i am at level 45 just got to phon coast with my zodiac spear and 6 demonsbanes :p. i havent played video games in a while and ff12 has me wanting to play every 2 minutes. i am really into it. those that dont enjoy it first time around should heed the advice ive seen in this thread and give it another go. vaan is essential to the game, without him the adventure wouldnt exist. penelo is however less of a character from what i have seen... i would have preferred one of the guests.. personally..

I'm going to sadly agree. The potential for the characters is amazing. They're all likeable and interesting, but I don't feel for them in the same way I did with the characters in previous Final Fantasy games, especially X. Hopefully if a sequel is released, it will give us a more personal look at the characters.

I also disliked many game play aspects. Although it was a fun novelty to engage the enemies as you would in an action game, I couldn't help but find it too much of a departure from a RPG. Square Enix is toeing the line between action and roleplay, and I don't like the action genre.
I found levelling up difficult because you had to leave the area to respawn the enemies, rather than having them randomly appear. That meant that rather than loitering in an area where I could gain consistant experience from hard battles, I had to fight, walk out of the area, and re-enter to fight the exact same monsters. Somehow, levelling up became more dull in this game, not less.


I have a million positive things to say about this game, but this is a topic about the flaws of the game.

"Somehow, levelling up became more dull in this game, not less."

I know what you mean. Not only that, but the highest enemy level is 65 or less so leveling up from level 60 is a pain, especially after you finish all of the sidequests. I am currently trying to level up at the Henne Mines (saw the trick at youtube) and it is still sooooo dull.

Seems to me they should have payed more attention to the License Board system and leveling up, instead to the looks of the game.

If in XIII they did keep the same battle system, merged the two different themes for the storyline (the whole politics thing was a nice change but it needed something more, maybe more of a romance angle tied into it would have been better) with decent areas to train al the way to level 99, so that the story could still be completed at about lvl50 but there were still loads of places to explore and train, get rare items etc.

I think XII is a great game but there's always room for improvement, the licence board was a bit of a let down because it was so easy to complete, and also to make more use of quickenings and summonings as I didnt feel the need to use them at all really. Again, if these acted like the overdrives and summons in X it would be better.

My main criticisms of this game stem from the idea that they decided to revolutionize the gameplay, but they didn't quite "go all the way."

For example, the Gambit system. It's awesome, I enjoy it a lot. However, they should have added another level of complexity. I want to be able to "program" my characters to do more sophisticated things. Like, only attack an enemy with Flare if he's weak to Fire AND I have >>80% MP. And only use AOE magic if there are 3 or more enemies in range. And so on.

And they should have let us use all 6 party members at once. There is no reason why they had to have a 3 member party with the gambit system in place!! Think of all the cool things you could do with that many gambit slots available at once. As it is, with 3 members you don't even really need gambits (you can micro everything if you want to). 6 members would have made the game 2x as exciting to play.

Other than Steal and Expose, Technicks were useless. Lure should have been a technick not a spell. Overall, there should have been some reason to explore that part of the board (well other than the quickening slots). What about things like Jump, or abilities that improve your stats for a short time, or something? It's like they tacked on technicks without thinking about it at all. They could basically have just put in all the Job Abilities from FFXI and that would have been enough. This would have also allowed you to really customize your party much more than is now possible.

In short, the gameplay was awesome and I liked all the changes they made, but it could have been sooo much better if they'd just gone the extra mile. As it is it kind of feels rushed and incomplete.

I've never found it so difficult to level up in any roleplay game I've ever played, which is causing me great frustration. It's stopping me from really appreciating the game. I also agree that they made the Licence Board too easy to complete, and would have liked more Espers and Quickenings. One of my favourite Final Fantasy features are the various summons.

This probably won't earn me too many friends in here, but I am pretty much in agreement with the original post. FFXII tries to take far too much onto its plate and abandons a cohesive narrative in favor of an ill-conceived political drama. This is to be expected from the FFT team, but even with their involvement there was far too much going on for the pieces to be properly assembled.

All in all, I was greatly disappointed with the game. The battle system, while at first unique and refreshing, quickly lost its appeal - with a minimum of effort, I could allow the gambits to pretty much finish out any battle for me. I was able to finish off one of the later espers without once picking up the controller after initiating combat.

I don't hate it, not by any means, and it easily slams down 99% of the competition. However, when faced with a choice between this and Persona 3 or Suikoden V, I have to give the nod to either of the latter, if only for a more enjoyable story.

I agree with agentXIII
while I play final fantasy religiously I can't even stay interested in XII long enough to get through I'm all for a political story but the characters have to have better interaction why would soldier's and pirates let two kids stay involved in their affairs? I mean a kid with no warrior training is just going to get in the way

and the battle system in this one is pathetic I gave it a chance and it failed miserably. its auto battle that you have to set why didn't they just go on and set it up so all we had to do was move the characters around and they take care of the rest. I would have been much happier with a kingdom hearts type of battle system at least that would have been entertaining

and as to personal taste I want go back to how six was done a bunch of controllable characters and well done art for enemies

lol revivng nine month old threads

While I'm here I'd like to say I even liked X-2's story a fair bit more than XII's.

Everything you said I agree with. I was severely disappointed with F XII, not least because of the music :( Oh wellz. The storyline seemed so diluted; yeah, it was a good storyline but it used to take forever to progress it.

The storyline and characters doesn't make FFXII great. It's the gameplay. The game had an MMO feel to it. I like that, since random battles were so annoying.

Apparently, the game was suppose to be much darker. Basch was going to be the main character ( notice he has more of a story than the rest of the characters ). To attract a more younger fan base, they added Vaan and Penelo. You can tell that these characters were added late into the development, because they don't have a story, nor do they say much of anything. Vaan has a little story, but we know diddly squat about Penelo.

However, Penelo was a great white mage.