I thought about putting this in the Academy Award movies thread, but I figure it'll probably get more downloads this way, and this one should be a great one for talking about.



The feverish spectacle of a summer camp for evangelical Christian kids is the focus of Jesus Camp, a fascinating if sometimes alarming documentary. For most of the film, we follow a charismatic teacher, Becky Fischer, as she trains young soldiers in "God's Army" at a camp in North Dakota. Some of the kids emerge as likable and bright, and eager to continue their work as pint-sized preachers; elsewhere, the visions of children speaking in tongues and falling to the floor in ecstasy are more troubling. Even more arresting is the vision of a generation of children home-schooled to believe that the Bible is science, or Fischer's certainty that America's flawed system of democracy will someday be replaced by a theocracy. Filmmakers Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady maintain neutrality about all this, maybe too much so and one would like to know more about the grown-ups presented here. Time will tell whether the film's Christian soldiers will be marching onward.

To download, right click and select "Save Target As"

Download here (http://fileho.com/download/2edfce420685/f271fc391618-pmacsusej.abc.html) and change .abc to .avi

This is a great one for talking about so I hope lots of people get it!

downloadin'

I think "maintain their neutrality" might be a bit of an overstatement. More like "avoid the temptation to lambaste the crap out of these wackos."

Great movie though. The children's' devotion is actually quite moving, in a scary kind of way.
I'm not religious, but I think it would be kind of neat to have something to hold ecstatic rituals for.

I rented this earlier today and just got through watching it. (hooray for wasted money!)

I really feel sorry for those children. =\

I started watching it - I had to take a break to do things (I had not one but TWO gigs tonight <3) - but I found it really lol when Fischer said "Too many christian adults have grown fat and lazy"

I started watching it - I had to take a break to do things (I had not one but TWO gigs tonight <3) - but I found it really lol when Fischer said "Too many christian adults have grown fat and lazy"

Yeah, me too. ; ;

There were some things I found pretty funny that I probably shouldn't have. =/ It's sad for those kids.

Also, that guy saying "you look good with that tape on your mouth" to that little girl was so creepy and weird I had to rewind to make sure I'd heard him right.

Becky really seems like she cares about the kids and loves teaching them though, even if the message is really messed up, and even though it's sad for those kids, it's kind of neat that they have so much faith and passion about it.

rolleyes.

You guys should watch a show that aired (with much controversy) in the UK. You can download it here =o

http://www.antonioedward.net/component/option,com_remository/Itemid,28/func,fileinfo/filecatid,50/parent,category part 1

http://www.antonioedward.net/component/option,com_remository/Itemid,28/func,fileinfo/filecatid,49/parent,category part 2 ~

It's by the guy that just released the new book "The God Delusion" =o (which you can download as .pdf here (http://rmrk.net/index.php/topic,11657.0.html)).

Becky really seems like she cares about the kids and loves teaching them though, even if the message is really messed up, and even though it's sad for those kids, it's kind of neat that they have so much faith and passion about it.

But that's the point. Is their devotion & passion, of faith? or are they being brained washed (I'm all for passing on beliefs and values, but actual convictions, and POVs is another thing entirely)?

But that's the point. Is their devotion & passion, of faith? or are they being brained washed (I'm all for passing on beliefs and values, but actual convictions, and POVs is another thing entirely)?

It absolutely could be brainwashing in some situations. It's hard to tell, because they really didn't show much of that stuff aside from the very scary homeschooling scene.

But when I was a christian as a little kid, I was more like that neat little blonde guy who sometimes had a hard time believing stuff in the bible and who wondered if God existed. I don't know. I just think some people naturally have more faith when it comes to stuff then others.

At any rate, I'd really like to see them follow up on some of these kids a couple years down the road, but that probably isn't very likely to happen.

ALSO HOLY CRAP VASTALIS POSTED. (this is terra branford)

It absolutely could be brainwashing in some situations. It's hard to tell, because they really didn't show much of that stuff aside from the very scary homeschooling scene.

But when I was a christian as a little kid, I was more like that neat little blonde guy who sometimes had a hard time believing stuff in the bible and who wondered if God existed. I don't know. I just think some people naturally have more faith when it comes to stuff then others.

At any rate, I'd really like to see them follow up on some of these kids a couple years down the road, but that probably isn't very likely to happen.

ALSO HOLY CRAP VASTALIS POSTED. (this is terra branford)

Thank You, Thank You...
Yes, I know!
I decided to give you all the honor of my presence!
Enjoy!!! (suddenly, head grew bigger than the site could handle)
*jk*

Seriously though:
I've been wandering the net aimlessly, and decided to see what was happening.

But see, it's okay to have beliefs, and teach them to your kids, but when you're teaching them to be militant, close minded, and "My Way or the Highway!" that's just wrong.

I grew up Spanish Catholic, and although it's a slightly bit different than the Irish/English (not all English are Anglican/Protestant or Irish Catholic) counterparts, "we're" (in general) are devoted. I've always questioned my beliefs, and now that I'm getting more and more older, I've felt I was missing something. I'm not saying that I'm a "born again", ('cause I still don't believe I have to pray inside a special building to talk to God, and I still question things in the bible) but I have started praying everyday. It just helps me clear my mind of anger/worries.

(I know I lost the point, so let me tie it all in)

My point: It's not that one person has more faith, than another. It's more like knowing whether or not you need some kind of faith. It's like a Tibetan Monk said to Billy Corgan: "We don't care whether you believe in buddism or not, as long as you have something to believe in" Lollapalooza 94
Bottomline: In time, you'll know whether or not you need faith.

Hopefully I stated some kind of point...

If not, 'll admit that I confused myself!!! lol


(AGAIN... my beliefs are right for me)

I have a feeling that this movie would piss me off too much, so I will refrain from watching it for now.

I've never been to bible camp, and I think that's probably a big reason why I believe in God. lol.

I went to bible camp when I was a bit older then the kids in the movie, and it involved a lot of girls and boys sneaking out of their cabins late night for makeouts.

lolzorz!

I went to bible camp when I was a bit older then the kids in the movie, and it involved a lot of girls and boys sneaking out of their cabins late night for makeouts.
WHAT!!!

Bible camp is like THAT!!!

Hell, If I had known that then, I'd gladly be a convert!

Help me lord baby Jesus, help me!

I went to bible camp when I was a bit older then the kids in the movie, and it involved a lot of girls and boys sneaking out of their cabins late night for makeouts.

I went to bible camp once. I got in trouble because I beat up the fat kid I was sharing a room with. Also, our counselor got kicked out halfway through the week for selling drugs.

Thank you Ndi for bringing this movie to light,

I have been and as far as I can see will always be an atheist. This movie makes me really sad to see children being denied the opportunity to believe or disbelieve in whatever deities they choose. Especially during the credit sequence, when the children ask themselves, "what do they think we are trying to sell?, we are only children." This is what I find most offensive about some of these religions. Its use of children in its proclamation. As an atheist I find it most offensive to be confronted by children trying to advertise their religion. I feel unable to discuss logically anything I believe, and have to tell them what they want to hear just to get rid of them. This really makes me angry.

Thank you once again for bringing this movie/documentary to light, and I urge you to continue to bring these thought provoking films to our attention.

Agreed Zachron.

(wow, what a short first post)

WHAT!!!

Bible camp is like THAT!!!

Hell, If I had known that then, I'd gladly be a convert!

Help me lord baby Jesus, help me!

Please, every fundamentalist Christian I know of is either a rapist, a bigot, a swinger, or some combination. As a Christian, I find the ideals of most fundamentalists to be rather repulsive. Some I have no beef with their ideologies, but I find their practices to be quite hypocritical. Quite simply Christianity is in ruins. It's becoming more and more repulsive to people who actually believe in God, and it's now to the point to where it's somewhat fashionable to some who don't believe in God... People who use their positions to misuse those in their care or control to their own purposes for example. God is someone I believe in, and Christ is my god. God fearing men and women are not very common anymore, and I myself have become probably more sinful now than I've ever been before... I used to think that Christianity was the best religion... but now I think of it as the worst religion out there with the exception of all the others that have been tried. (oddly enough that's how Saint Paul described it... and in retrospect that is how my bishop has described it.) I have faith in God, but I have often had very little faith in people... I've learned that without faith in the goodness of humanity, that faith in God is basically pointless. If we can't be good people then we can't serve God very well. God can forgive sins(and as forgiven all sins), but even a penitent man who has been forgiven, can fall back into his sins. Faith, not merit is what gives a man entry into paradise, but for those who do nothing particularly good, heaven is more of a reward than a purpose. If men can't be good, godly, and trustworthy, then their time in this world wouldn't serve much of a purpose. I refuse to believe that this world is here as some kind of proving grounds or sieving process... I would sooner concede the possibility that there was not life after death. That to me is not requisite for my belief in god... or even my belief in paradise. This world is the only world we have, and if men destroy it then it is gone. If one has no faith in humanity, then if we are resurrected at the end of time, what's to say the resurrected won't simply repeat the sins of their former lives? Even if only the pure were resurrected they could originate new sin where none ever existed before.

Luckily, I see people are not doomed or damned, that the fate of this world is yet undecided, and men who have sinned before can yet find redemption. There are good people in this world, and people who really believe in God. I know one man who believes in God if no one else does., and he's the pastor of my church. He's honest about his desire for us to tithe, and he's a man of his own vices, but he's a man who I know believes in the things that he preaches, he does nothing that will lead us to sin, and his ministry has not bred fanatics but fervent believers who hold to their faith but have not abandoned reason. He and the priests of my church were the ones who taught me that a Christian should never commit or advocate treason, that it is sinful to desire much less pray for the destruction of our government. Any government should only be resisted in order to resist injustice, and it is the prerogative of people who do so to do so within the provisions of social authority before even considering the possibility of revolt. Because we live in a representative republic it is possible for people to rebel against one injustice without destroying the government at large...

These are all things I believe, and I even believe in gifts of the spirit, such as speaking in tongues and prophecy, I think that if one is of the right mind, one can hear the voice of God, or at least feel the will of God in a situation, that if one searches one's heart for what is right and faithfully asks God, for his guidance, then one will find the right path. So don't get me wrong, I'm not denouncing my religion... but I don't think that these radical fanatics do God's will any good. I'll watch the movie later, I would watch it on Youtube, or something like that, but I just don't want it on my hard drive. lol.

This movie makes me really sad to see children being denied the opportunity to believe or disbelieve in whatever deities they choose.

Refering to what Zachron said in his first paragraph, there seems to be a very strong but mistaken image of what/who a christian is; either an elderly person, wearing a suit and tie and attending church every sunday, or some kind of preacher constantly spewing out bible passages. At least, this is what it seems to be the generalisation. In the quote above, it appears to me that you seem to be implying that a christian is "forced" into believing. I go to church and am a christian out of complete free will, and out of enjoyment of worshipping God (Even if some sundays i want a lie in =) ). Being a christian is not to do with dressing up smart (not that i'm saying that there is anything wrong with doing so to go to church, but personally i don't) or acting "holier than thou", it is about a relationship with God and ultimately loving Jesus, who died to forgive our sins. "Church" is literally a gathering of christians worshipping God - it doesn't matter if you are in a tumbled down hut or whatever. It seems to me that christianity is far from being in ruins.

=)

Refering to what Zachron said in his first paragraph, there seems to be a very strong but mistaken image of what/who a christian is; either an elderly person, wearing a suit and tie and attending church every sunday, or some kind of preacher constantly spewing out bible passages. At least, this is what it seems to be the generalisation. In the quote above, it appears to me that you seem to be implying that a christian is "forced" into believing. I go to church and am a christian out of complete free will, and out of enjoyment of worshipping God (Even if some sundays i want a lie in =) ). Being a christian is not to do with dressing up smart (not that i'm saying that there is anything wrong with doing so to go to church, but personally i don't) or acting "holier than thou", it is about a relationship with God and ultimately loving Jesus, who died to forgive our sins. "Church" is literally a gathering of christians worshipping God - it doesn't matter if you are in a tumbled down hut or whatever. It seems to me that christianity is far from being in ruins.

=)

I don't think that's what he means. I think most people here are well aware that most christians aren't like the ones being potrayed in this movie.

The kids focused on in this movie are being homeschooled, and they're not getting exposed to anything but what their parents teach them. Eventually, they'll grow up, and maybe they'll be able to form their own opinions then, but right now they don't even know anything else.

[insert what he actually said here]

Things aren't always what they "seem" I am not implying what so ever that anyone is forced to believe anything. People believe things they want to believe, else this world would not have so many religions or schools of thought. Fanatics are born not of brainwashing, but of people who do not want to think for themselves lending their ears to those who believe and/or desire others to believe fanatical rhetoric. And if Christianity was not in ruins, there would not be 20 churches and 6 Cathedrals in one town,(The town I go to church in has about that. While the town I live in has about 10 churches and 3 Cathedrals) there would be One church or One cathedral in one town. The great cities of this world have thousands upon thousands of half filled buildings, and a combined wealth potent enough to where if they got together, they could easily afford to construct a single building for all of them(or a set of buildings that are more conveniently spaced between the various parts of the city), but several of them can't even stand each other. There are even separate congregations of the same sects in the same towns that don't associate in towns across America. Every thing you have said about the Church is true in my beliefs, it is the gathering of the people, not the building that makes a church, but if that is true, then definitely you have only demonstrated my point. That is so because It is the people who have fallen apart from each other and built separate buildings, not the buildings that have sent out tendrils in random directions and lost track of each other. Even if the people could agree on a common creed, the couldn't agree on who's going to be in charge.

All that said, read the second and third paragraph, and you'd know that there was not just dreary pessimism in my post.

Yeah so that was interesting. It's pretty disturbing seeing the kids forced into this stuff, when they obviously don't know how to think for themselves. The two little girls in particular I thought were scary because they seemed to have reservations about things but where scared to really say anything or disappoint the adults. Yeah, and definitely big ups for the little blond kid he's breaking away from that shit in a couple of years no doubt. I loved the stuff with Haggard towards the end. He just came off as creepy and evil, then he got all exposed after the movie was made for smokin meth and bangin male hookers. I grew up catholic and these people make catholics look like extreme progressives.

Ndi got me perfectly, i'm not talking about christians in general. I'm talking about these homeschooled kids boxed into believing whatever their parents feed them.

Children shouldn't need to be boxed in to believe their parents. Parents ought to be close enough to their children that they see their parents as having the authority that the law grants them, and they ought to respect and observe the beliefs of their parents even knowing that other beliefs exist... then they ought to select a belief they can hold to and believe, when they are adults, and not simply fall into whatever ideology they they are exposed to the most whenever they enter their rebellious teen years, and never go look back on the ways of their mothers and fathers before them because those were really ways they never really knew.

The children who are boxed up and home schooled are usually not equipped to deal with exposure to foreign beliefs, and don't know how to evaluate them logically. Whereas children who are not given any instruction do not know how to not accept instruction in foreign beliefs and won't evaluate them properly before adopting them. Many children have no concept of what it is to be Christian when their teens and adults, either because they've been underinstructed, or overinstructed. Many others are disappointed with a lack of results.

I believe that Christianity is in the midst of a revival, but it is still surrounded by the rubble of the past, and much of it must be cleaned up or the church will only collapse in on itself again...

Sorry if it came across as if I was critising your points alot Zachron, the only point I mainly disagreed with was about christianity being in ruins. Supported with the later posts, I see the point you were making now and appologise if I seemed over critical or anything.

I think what I am basically trying to say is, these kids in the video; are they really christians?: do they believe in God just because they have been told to by there parents? A belief is supposed to be out of love of Jesus/God and a relationship with Jesus/God, not out of your parents telling you that "you must believe". So basically I'm agreeing with alot of what everyone else has said concerning the child be given a certain amount of freedom to explore other choices and not be kept completely on a thin, straight track. I do however agree with Zachron in saying that they should be given a certain amount of "instruction" and awareness of parents beliefs.

I think I should try posting in a few other places aswell now, get that post count over 10...

Yes, you need to check out other threads on other topics, and also try the Final Fantasy, General Gaming, or Anime and Manga forums... and if none of those topics meet your fancy, then you probably have not business at this forum. General discussion is only part of the forum afterall. You'll find that some people who aren't a vocal about their belief or disbelief in God, or their political affiliations like to roam places other than General Discussion, and come to General Discussion only once every few days, to see what's going down.

This is pretty much the only place I post anymore besides the music forum.

I'm not a great forum chatter =). I generally stick to a couple of topics and post on them. Unlike some people, I have to read around abit before i start posting. I didn't just register to post in this topic. A friend asked me to register and post, and this was the first topic I really had an opinion on.

Makes good enough sense to me.

I liked when he said "this is sparta" and kicked him in the chest

I believe that Christianity is in the midst of a revival, but it is still surrounded by the rubble of the past, and much of it must be cleaned up or the church will only collapse in on itself again...

This collapse is final though, because of all the lies. Afterwards it won't be ran by men at all.

I was thinking we could maybe move this and the Twin Peaks thread to the new TV/Movie Forum and get the movie club started up again.


thoughts?

Good idea! Doing that now.

I'll post up a new movie today or tomorrow, depending on how long deciding/uploading takes.

Awesome