Yep, it sure is. That, I think we can all agree on.


Is Final Fantasy VII the most excellent FF game or game at all ever out there? No, of course not. Several Final Fantasies have a better / more-interesting plot, i.e. VI, IX and X/X-2. Many have better/more interesting characters --- VI and IX in particular had some very compelling characters. And of course, the ones that come after it generally have better graphics.


Is Final Fantasy VII the most god-awful game / worst-FF game ever? Nope. Sure, many of the characters are stereotypes, but there can be no denying that there's something very compelling about these characters to many people. I for one am quite fond of both Cid Highwind and Yuffie Kisaragi. And whether you like Sephiroth or not, or think he's a crap-awful villain, there's no denying that his SPOILER (ROFFLE) killing of Aeris did engender hatred / sadness / whatever in millions of people. And there's a lot to do that keeps people coming back to this game many times, even if the battle system is rather easy and even if there are some major flaws in the story. And some of the mini-games on this are actually kinda fun --- the snowboarding is actually pretty cool once you figure out how to work it and the motorcycle chase is a pretty wild adrenaline rush.


So in conclusion, Final Fantasy VII is a game. It is what it is and despite its flaws, millions of people can't help but have fun with it anyway.

I guess you could classify me as a "FFVII hater." Although I am openly against just about every aspect of this game, I do not believe it is the WORST Final Fantasy ever.

That would be VIII.

Anyway, there was a time when FFVII made me happy. I was about 6 or 7 years old when it first came out and my friend had picked up a copy. Of course he would rant about it all the time.
So, I did small chores around the house and finally bought it. It kept me entertained at the time because I had grown an addiction to RPG based games and FFVII was still one of my first.

My friend and I would hook up two TVs in the same room and waste hours away into the game. We had fun discussing it and such.
After a year or two when the game had been in my past, I grew very impatient with many of the "FFVII Theories" I saw floating around.
It made me lose interest in the game, and to this day I cannot stand when people put it in such positive light and high regards.

(Come to think of it, the same friend and I are going to have some FFXII parties next weekend.)

After a year or two when the game had been in my past, I grew very impatient with many of the "FFVII Theories" I saw floating around.
And that's why I usually stay far far away from this section.

XP
Mm...I agree with a lot of what you said.....


>>
I remember watching my father play the game a long time ago....
I was too young to understand what was happening...but I remember crying during the [!!!!!zmmgoomg SPOILER!!!!!] scene....I thought Aeris and Tifa were the coolest in the world, and that Cloud was cute and like, huggable and fuzzy...like a Moogle or something. >>
Whenever I played the game, I usually ended up wandering to the Gold Saucer and then staying around there for the rest of the time I played....

When I got older, I replayed the game, when I could understand the story...and I was overwhelmed by how much I missed....and how much I finally understood.....
Hm. I think that might be partially why I like the game so much.....
But when I replayed it again, recently, in College...the dialoge was wonderful....it was like, "bagfulls of humanity", both the good kind and bad kind. >>
There isn't as much of that in the more recent FFs, but I think that's mostly because too much detail in newer graphics makes that sort of a bad thing (like, people committing suicide or "prostituting" or whatever >>)

For some reason im now picturing cloud in a moogle suit.

As for what you said about Aeris, I really didnt care. I never used her anyway. (Except when you had to, but you know what I mean.) Its just a game. A good game, with pretty good replay value, but nevertheless still a game.

There is a lot of game there, certainly a lot of mini games.
and for the time the production values were massive for an rpg game.

I think the reason i loved it so much in the past is because of the fact it was one of the first i had played. So it will always be remembered as a great game no matter how many bugs, polt holes or engrish i find in it.

Since played 7 ive not seen an rpg that has allowed me to do so much at the end of the game. The amount of missable materia is quite amazing (Knights of the round, Alexander, Exp plus, Mime, Steal as well, Added cut etc)

Plus the chocobo breeding, racing is a great time waster.

And the mini games in gold saucer (bar the basketball and arm wrestling :( )



it just seems to have much more to it than many other rpg's ive played.

And here we go again with all the usual bullshit. Someone criticizes the game, fans come out and masturbate all over it, and the thread becomes a clone of all the other FFVII threads.

Some years back i was of the believe that FFVII was the greastest game ever.

Of course, since then i`ve grown up, my taste in games have changed and i see FFVII for what it is. It isn`t as good as i remember but isn`t that like with most games?. I`m not sure about you guys but i`d be hard pressed to find an old game that still impresses me as much today as it did when it was first out. I`m of the believe that for it`s time FFVII was fantastic, well, at least for me it was. FFVII was the first game i ever played that put me in world and showed me that games could be more than just walking from left to right punching gang members or collecting coins. It was the first RPG i played and it set the standard in my eyes.

Of course, FFVII has gotten somewhat of a bad reputation of late. Rabid fanboys quite litreally own the game now and put me off thinking about it anymore.

Also, Advent Children ruined it for me. Bullet-time, shoddy "let`s bring Sephiroth back" story, over hyped visuals etc...

But like Agent said, it`s a game. Damn right, it`s only game!. There`s nothing wrong with debating about a game but most "debates" regarding FFVII amuse me. On one end you have a member with a well thought out and respectful opinion of the game. On the other you have a fanboy, someone that`s one cell away from a bloody amoeba. The debate goes nowhere, and the thread goes to shit.

I try and not get involed in any debates about FFVII considering most of the fan base nowdays is young teens who think Cloud is the dogs bollocks.

Well now, I did love FF7 when I was younger. With time and maturity, I came to see the games numerous flaws in the game. I still enjoy it, on a purely personal level. Quality wise however, it's a mediocre game at best.

As iam playing the game right now, this is how i consider it. The game is enjoyable, the story is god enough to keep my interest. The characters aint original at all, but still, they are ok to keep me interested in the game. I beilive that Final Fantasy VII's plot and character should be considered like aN action movie. You do not need original characters or an excellent plot. Just action.

The graphics suck, but thats not realy something i care about. The music is great, but after playing ff ix and vi i think they overrate vii's music.

The materia system is good, however i dont really liked it. I prefer other systems like the job system, the relic system or the ix's one.

All in all, the game worths my time. Meybe my point of view will change in the future.

And here we go again with all the usual bullshit. Someone criticizes the game, fans come out and masturbate all over it, and the thread becomes a clone of all the other FFVII threads.

>>
It seemed the first post was just an analysis of the game....
And other people aren't coming here to masturbate over it...><
We're just adding our experiences with it!

It just seemed....right...to put those sorts of things in this topic...because I agree with the topic creator. I just wanted to put in what my experiences with FF7 were, since liking FF7 often is a very personal thing....
If I'm being off-topic, let me know...

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!


And here we go again with all the usual bullshit. Someone criticizes the game, fans come out and masturbate all over it, and the thread becomes a clone of all the other FFVII threads.

Originally Posted by ff7rulz
ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

Careful...!
>>
No need for that sort of language...XP

I love FF7! What we're saying is that it has flaws, too...but it doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy the game...=]

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

EVERYTHING about this makes me want to pull my hair out.

EVERYTHING about this makes me want to pull my hair out.

same here...especially when you try to have a good argument with evidence, because for some reason all the fanboys/girls can't come up with any aside from biased articles and one-sided opinions

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

*Steps back*
Mate, that may not have been the SMARTEST thing to say, especially on a forum with people waiting to rip your lungs out if you mention the words "Love" and "Final Fantasy 7" in the same sentence.

Now for my opinion. The game was great when it was released nearly ten years ago. But look how far games have come now! The graphics, the sound and general gameplay is FAR better that games back in 1997. Final Fantasy VII may have been a good game back in 1997, but it's 2006. GET WITH THE TIMES!!! There are new, better games on better consoles that you can play now. So for god sake, find a new RPG game to play. Get a life, get a job, get a girlfriend or a boyfriend AND get a root. Final Fantasy VII is, and will always just be.. a game.

But then again, if you haven't played it before. Play it, so you can quickly get over how good or bad you think it is and get on with your life..

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

Bwahahahahahahaha! You're the most funny and a silly tard. I just strongly wish you could repeat that *roffles*, so the whole shrine can hear it. I almost absolutely doubt that you've been spending some time concentrating on the other FFs. Mir?

I like FFVII not for its popularity, but because it was a big part of my gaming world as a child. I know that this game is hated by a lot of people, but that doesn't really take anything away from the game, or the experiences I've had as a kid growing up. I like this game mostly for the sentimental values, rather than for how popular, or unpopular, it has become.

Well now, I did love FF7 when I was younger. With time and maturity, I came to see the games numerous flaws in the game.

That's pretty much how it was with me as well.

When i first tried the game out, as i hadn't played many other games of it's type, it didn't occur to me to look beyond the flashy effects and 3-D animation. To me it was just a fun way to pass free time indoors, and certainly I enjoyed hours of time on it when playing through the first disc or so not least because I was also intrigued by the storyline at the start, thinking that it was going to turn out to be much better than it actually did. That and the flashy effects were the main reasons I played the game.

However then came the point i got side tracked with other games, along with other things happening at the time, so didn't get around to continuing with it/finishing it till much later. When doing so i found after a while that i was starting to lose interest. I wasn't entirely sure why this was at first but then after giving it further thought realised that certain things about the game weren't as good as i'd first believed them to be as by then i'd become more observant. It was then that i started to look at it from a more critical point of view and realised that it could be have been a much better game.

It's possible that one day I might play it again just to finish off some of the stuff that i skipped through first time but in the meantime there's plenty of other games i'd much rather play.


ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

lol

I like FFVII not for its popularity, but because it was a big part of my gaming world as a child. I know that this game is hated by a lot of people, but that doesn't really take anything away from the game, or the experiences I've had as a kid growing up. I like this game mostly for the sentimental values, rather than for how popular, or unpopluar, it has become.

Quoted for truth. I just could not put it into words.

Now for my opinion. The game was great when it was released nearly ten years ago. But look how far games have come now! The graphics, the sound and general gameplay is FAR better that games back in 1997. Final Fantasy VII may have been a good game back in 1997, but it's 2006. GET WITH THE TIMES!!! There are new, better games on better consoles that you can play now. So for god sake, find a new RPG game to play. Get a life, get a job, get a girlfriend or a boyfriend AND get a root. Final Fantasy VII is, and will always just be.. a game.

Final Fantasy VI is still an amazing game, just as it was before 1997, and still much better than FFVII. Final Fantasy VII is not an outdated game; it's just too riddled with flaws and poor character development to be considered as good of a game as FFVI or FFVII.

And Final Fantasy VII is not a game for some of these fanboys.

ff7 is the best game ever, i love it. it has great characters, a great story and sephiroth is fucking cool, lol! how can anyone think its a bad game, you guys are fucking idiots!!!

I smell a joke account, lolz. I can't believe people actually believed without a doubt that this is serious. XD

I'm proud to say that FF7 little to no presence in my gaming life. Tried it to see what the rage was, got tired of it quickly and watched a friend complete it, and that's about it. Simillar story with AC, saw the hype, watched it to see what the rage was and...this demonstrates my feelings for the movie pretty well...

Dude Final Fantasy Advent Children kicked arse! I'll admit the English voice-overs were... for lack of a better word shit... anyway the storyline was awesome, it followed on from one of the most epic Final Fantasy games ever, and the battle scenes were absolutely brilliant! I expected nothing more from the movie and it did not dissapoint me in the slightest. Plus Cloud's new sword WAS F***ING AWESOME!!!! Overall Vincent was the coolest character though.

Dude Final Fantasy Advent Children kicked arse! I'll admit the English voice-overs were... for lack of a better word shit... anyway the storyline was awesome, it followed on from one of the most epic Final Fantasy games ever, and the battle scenes were absolutely brilliant! I expected nothing more from the movie and it did not dissapoint me in the slightest. Plus Cloud's new sword WAS F***ING AWESOME!!!! Overall Vincent was the coolest character though.

Get your head examined immediately or you will be sectioned before you know it.

Dude Final Fantasy Advent Children kicked arse! I'll admit the English voice-overs were... for lack of a better word shit... anyway the storyline was awesome, it followed on from one of the most epic Final Fantasy games ever, and the battle scenes were absolutely brilliant! I expected nothing more from the movie and it did not dissapoint me in the slightest. Plus Cloud's new sword WAS F***ING AWESOME!!!! Overall Vincent was the coolest character though.

The other one may or may not be a joke account, but this one looks pretty serious. I roffled.

Dude Final Fantasy Advent Children kicked arse! I'll admit the English voice-overs were... for lack of a better word shit... anyway the storyline was awesome, it followed on from one of the most epic Final Fantasy games ever, and the battle scenes were absolutely brilliant! I expected nothing more from the movie and it did not dissapoint me in the slightest. Plus Cloud's new sword WAS F***ING AWESOME!!!! Overall Vincent was the coolest character though.

ROFL

Yeh its a game..its one hell of a game! I havn't played it since I played it when i was 14, but i bought advent children the other day and so its all brought up again.

I just wana say that the combination of music, story, and direction in that game were quality, and I'm glad to see the people behind it did this film aswell, and they should work together on something else very soon. The bonus features are really good and let you have insight into the minds of the creators..brilliant.

But i will always remeber the game i played back then because it was the best gaming experience of my life and always will be no matter how shit it looks now and how old the story is. Since then i'v played nearly everthing thats hyped, halo2 online, elder scrolls4, pro evo...wotever, when i had just defeated some kind of monster and settled into a new town in final fantasy to resume the story,it was a great feeling, proabably sad, but true. And one a game won't give me again...so no regrets, thanks for listening

Why do all the noobs and fankids seem to think this is a "reminisce about ff7" thread? =/

Since then i'v played nearly everthing thats hyped, halo2 online, elder scrolls4, pro evo...wotever

I find this more funny than watching the usual fanboys drool.

So since you played an already overrated game and liked it, you only choose to play games that are the most popular. Which the third title you mentioned you can't even recall the name.

How is anyone to take you seriously?

wots this forum for then if its not to talk about final fantasy 7? No i choose to play games that are good, and they tend to be popular aswell because its not like films, a shit review and unpopular game is most likely to be a shit and unpopular game. Why would you waste your money on things like The Simpsons. And I mentioned three games...you want me to list them all?

The forum is for discussion of that particular game. The individual threads, however, are typically for discussing very specific topics relating to that crappy game. Pay attention to what a thread is about before you post in it.

Yes.

wots this forum for then if its not to talk about final fantasy 7? No i choose to play games that are good, and they tend to be popular aswell because its not like films, a shit review and unpopular game is most likely to be a shit and unpopular game. Why would you waste your money on things like The Simpsons. And I mentioned three games...you want me to list them all?


Sorry, I am just giving you shit because you are an idiot.

Carry on.

But like Agent said, it`s a game. Damn right, it`s only game!. There`s nothing wrong with debating about a game but most "debates" regarding FFVII amuse me. On one end you have a member with a well thought out and respectful opinion of the game. On the other you have a fanboy, someone that`s one cell away from a bloody amoeba. The debate goes nowhere, and the thread goes to shit.

It`s great how things work out.

well ive just wasted my time if the only people to read this are you two numbskulls. Why dont you make your own points rather than wait for someone to post and then put a snide comment underneath it?

If you could actually read, I was the first to reply to this thread.

Second, as much as I would like it, it is not my job to go around and make fun of everyone.
It is just really funny to poke fun at all of the people who post shit replys and are no names here anyway.

sean --- you're welcome to make your points --- but why not try making ones that actually are worth reading and are actually related to the topic being discussed, eh?


a.) Because it's poorly formatted
b.) Because it's barely readable
c.) Because we can barely make heads or tails of what you're asking
d.) Because it really has nothing to do with the topic under discussion

Some of the things that are said earlier i kind of agree with. The point of this thread, in my opinion, is to open eyes to the game in its whole, to realize its NOT the greatest game in the world, most everyone here has played ff7, and most of those people have had great memories playing it. But really, it was released almost a decade ago. Its time to move on some... Its just a game.

okay its not the greatest game in the world. But at that age, being the first role-playing game of that kind i had played, and having an engrossing story like that, it was at the time. I think it was just the timing of it all.

(what is the topic being discussed?) (I am not asking anything.)

okay its not the greatest game in the world. But at that age, being the first role-playing game of that kind i had played, and having an engrossing story like that, it was at the time. I think it was just the timing of it all.


I completely agree.

Many other would disagree, mostly those who had a Snes and were open to FF games (or many other RPGs) before. Not that the MegaDrive didn`t have its share of RPGs but they never seemed to be deep and as engrossing as their Snes counterpart.

okay its not the greatest game in the world. But at that age, being the first role-playing game of that kind i had played, and having an engrossing story like that, it was at the time. I think it was just the timing of it all.

(what is the topic being discussed?) (I am not asking anything.)

it's not about timing, it's about advertisement
why do you think that Final Fantasy is much more popular than D&D, when it's the other way around in terms of quality, playback value, player involvement, etc...

Dude Final Fantasy Advent Children kicked arse! I'll admit the English voice-overs were... for lack of a better word shit... anyway the storyline was awesome, it followed on from one of the most epic Final Fantasy games ever, and the battle scenes were absolutely brilliant! I expected nothing more from the movie and it did not dissapoint me in the slightest. Plus Cloud's new sword WAS F***ING AWESOME!!!! Overall Vincent was the coolest character though.

LOL

Why do all the noobs and fankids seem to think this is a "reminisce about ff7" thread? =/

Humf. What else would we put in this thread...?
The topic post was an analysis about the game, and how it's a game, its standings, and how though it may not have been the best as some people have said, it's not the worst ever, either.

You can reply to an analysis with an agreement or disagreement....
And if you say you agree, then that's usually all you can say in a post...
But I don't want to just put "I agree" and walk away...as if I like, put no effort into it or something....
So I just decided to write my personal experience with FF7....as a game.

Humf. What else would we put in this thread...?
The topic post was an analysis about the game, and how it's a game, its standings, and how though it may not have been the best as some people have said, it's not the worst ever, either.

You can reply to an analysis with an agreement or disagreement....
And if you say you agree, then that's usually all you can say in a post...
But I don't want to just put "I agree" and walk away...as if I like, put no effort into it or something....
So I just decided to write my personal experience with FF7....as a game.

Again, someone misunderstands the difference between personal enjoyment and quality. They are NOT the same thing. Take for example, I love Predator 2, I KNOW it's an appallling film, but I enjoy it.

thankyou, what i was saying is, yeh its just a game...but it was more than that for me at the time and still is.. and I think thats the same for a lot of other people too.

In my eyes, quality is only defined by what people think of something and how many people think that same thing. If enough people came forward and said they loved predator 2, then it would suddenly become quality. Is the Elder Scrolls 4 percived as a quality game...yes, but has it anywhere near envoked the kind of emotion that FF7 did back in 1994? No... and I ask anyone to tell me a single rpg since to have done so?

thankyou, what i was saying is, yeh its just a game...but it was more than that for me at the time and still is.. and I think thats the same for a lot of other people too.

Again, you're missing the point. The fact that the game means that much to you isn't being questioned or disputed. No-one has a problem with that. It's the quality of the game that comes into question.


In my eyes, quality is only defined by what people think of something and how many people think that same thing.

Uhh, no. Quality has a universal definition.


If enough people came forward and said they loved predator 2, then it would suddenly become quality.

No it certainly wouldn't. The fact is, its a terrible film in the quality stakes. The fact it has an unintentional comedy factor is why I like it.


Is the Elder Scrolls 4 percived as a quality game...yes, but has it anywhere near envoked the kind of emotion that FF7 did back in 1994? No... and I ask anyone to tell me a single rpg since to have done so?

Biased fan-boy crap. The death of General Leo in FFVI far surpassed anything FF7 did in terms of envoking emotion. It's far more dramatic, and infintely more tragic, and has way more meaning then Aeris's death.

Okay, sean0484 wins the moron of the month award for this:


If enough people came forward and said they loved predator 2, then it would suddenly become quality.

The point of this thread, in my opinion, is to open eyes to the game in its whole, to realize its NOT the greatest game in the world, most everyone here has played ff7, and most of those people have had great memories playing it. But really, it was released almost a decade ago. Its time to move on some... Its just a game.
You're mostly correct. The point was to attempt a rational discussion, for better or worse, of such ideas. Both the fact that it's not anywhere near the greatest game and that it's perhaps not the most god-awful crap that some make it out to be either. That it's just a game and that some people get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but it's neither ultra-great, nor ultra-awful.

Memories outshine the truth. So leave it and let it die with honour.

What is 'quality' s universal definition then? I'm intrigued. As far as I know its one that requires a certain grade of excellence? But who the hell has the right to judge that? No one.

I've never played ff6 so I cant compare. Its over...im letting it die with honour, its all good. (Prak your'e a cock attracting growler)

Prak your'e a cock attracting growler
ROTFL. Not a very creative insult, but slightly amusing nonetheless.

If enough people came forward and said they loved predator 2, then it would suddenly become quality.

*SNRK*

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Are you fucking serious? Approval and actual quality are 2 completely different things. No matter how many fanboys masturbate over FF7, it will never be Valkyrie Profile or Star Ocean 2.

(Prak your'e a cock attracting growler)

Quote for hilariously awesome stupidity.

(Prak your'e a cock attracting growler)

hahahahaha

give him some credit, it was original at least!

(Prak your'e a cock attracting growler)

has it anywhere near envoked the kind of emotion that FF7 did back in 1994?

Yeah..... way back when FFVII was released....


.....in.....94'....... hahahahah.




Idiot.

XD


Again, someone misunderstands the difference between personal enjoyment and quality. They are NOT the same thing.

<< ..........<< !
I've never said that my personal enjoyment equals its quality...!

I decided to share my personal experiences with the game in response to the analysis....simply because I don't have a "non-subjective" experience with FF7. I'm sharing what I can....because asking for a non-subjective experience of a game from me is something I can't offer....>< I'll always be somewhat biased, even if I try not to....

If you don't want the little I can share, that's another story...>>
Humf. And if that was the case, you could have just told me sooner.



I'm also having a little trouble with people talking about "Non-Subjective Quality".
It's true...that enjoyment =/= "non-subjective quality".
The inverse holds true, too...if a game was of "non-subjective quality", it does not necessarily mean I will enjoy it.

So like, if I want to play games I enjoy, but the "non-subjective quality" of the game doesn't necessarily tell me how much I'll enjoy the game, then what use is it for me to talk about this "non-subjective quality"?
HMM?

Are you fucking serious? Approval and actual quality are 2 completely different things. No matter how many fanboys masturbate over FF7, it will never be Valkyrie Profile or Star Ocean 2.

I seriously doubt he's even heard of those games, let alone played them to know just what you're talking about. Also, with sean0484's reasoning, Dubya's an awesome president--look at the election results.

Edit for NorseFTX: The simple answer is taste doesn't equal objective quality. None of us have an issue with folks enjoying FFVII. "I really like FFVII" and "FFVII is a great game" are two different statements. Take Bryan and Predator 2. It's honestly not a good movie, but he enjoys it nonetheless (probably because it's so bad).

...or that scientology is an awesome religion.

>>
lol

Hmm.
So enjoyment plays no bearing on quality.

But does quality play bearing on enjoyment? Or is does the inverse hold true--
"Quality plays no bearing on enjoyment".

(I kind of assumed this was true in the last post, but I want to make sure >>)

*SNRK*

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Are you fucking serious? Approval and actual quality are 2 completely different things. No matter how many fanboys masturbate over FF7, it will never be Valkyrie Profile or Star Ocean 2.

finally...somebody else that compares Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean 2 to FFVII and draws the same conclusion
development team for VP and SC > Final Fantasy dev team

I think to some degree it does. If somebody really enjoys a game, then that would suggest that there is at least some element of quality to it. However, there are many other factors that go into quality when it comes to a game --- a decent and comprehensible plot and characters, the overall fun factor and replayability of the game, the overall battle engine, etc.

I think to some degree it does. If somebody really enjoys a game, then that would suggest that there is at least some element of quality to it. However, there are many other factors that go into quality when it comes to a game --- a decent and comprehensible plot and characters, the overall fun factor and replayability of the game, the overall battle engine, etc.

the plot of FFVII was by no means involving and tended to stall constantly
the characters...don't get me started there...
fun factor...i'll admit that i did have fun beating Emerald and Ruby to no end, but that was about it
replay value...if not for the fact that my friend got the date with Barret...i wouldn't have played it...btw...the Barret scenario should have been the default
the battle engine was to simple...just attack in all the required fights and you'll beat the game

A surprisingly cogent (if poorly formatted) analysis of some of the game's flaws.

I think to some degree it does. If somebody really enjoys a game, then that would suggest that there is at least some element of quality to it. However, there are many other factors that go into quality when it comes to a game --- a decent and comprehensible plot and characters, the overall fun factor and replayability of the game, the overall battle engine, etc.

Mm, alright...=]
I agree with that....
If someone enjoys a game a lot, there's got to be something in there that somewhat qualifies as "quality"....

But then z.zetsumei brought up the main problem with 'enjoyment showing that there is some quality in a game'....

What happens if I really enjoyed the game...but some other people didn't...? (like z.zetsumei stated in their post)
If enjoyment shows that there is some quality in the game, but the enjoyment isn't uniform, does that mean there isn't quality in the game?

Would my enjoyment really make the game quality at all? Or would someone's dislike of a game be enough to say that the game is not quality?

...
.....
oO
If you need this post clarified, please let me know....because I'm a little bit confused too....

What happens if I really enjoyed the game...but some other people didn't...? (like z.zetsumei stated in their post)
If enjoyment shows that there is some quality in the game, but the enjoyment isn't uniform, does that mean there isn't quality in the game?

If you enjoy the game and somebody else doesn't, then you've got different tastes from them. However, there is an objective standard of quality based on several factors. They're often called different things, but graphics, sound, and gameplay are three pretty much universal factors.

"However, there is an objective standard of quality based on several factors. They're often called different things, but graphics, sound, and gameplay are three pretty much universal factors."

If thats the case then for ff7. The graphics were good. The sound was quality, and the gameplay was quality. Therefore it was a quality game.

If that line of bullshit didn't work for the hundreds of ignorant fankids that came before you, it won't work for you either. If you think those elements were so great, prove it with detailed comparisons against other games of the period. If you can't provide those, you're talking out your ass and deserve every syllable of the mockery you will inevitably receive from your betters; "cock attracting growlers" like me.

lol :laugh:

Seems to me that lines not going to be forgotten in a hurry!

Goodness gracious me, onion kids these days.

If you enjoy the game and somebody else doesn't, then you've got different tastes from them. However, there is an objective standard of quality based on several factors. They're often called different things, but graphics, sound, and gameplay are three pretty much universal factors.
Basically what I was saying. Yes, whether or not the game brings enjoyment to players is a factor in its overall quality. But it's only one of several factors, many of which are more objective.

well if my better is a cock attracting growler, then I don't even wana know what I am. (But at least you know what you are.)

I don't seem to have a list of all the games released in 1994 lying around, but I did own a playstation while my mate had an N64. I followed all of playstations releases around that time and ff7 had better gameplay and longevity than any of them. Perhaps maybe goldeneye was one of the few that I gave anywhere near the same playing time.

It was the first rpg since zelda to attract any kind of popular following and became the benchmark for any rpg since. And if you don't include graphics, for obvious reasons, any game magazine will tell you it is still the defintive rpg.

well if my better is a cock attracting growler, then I don't even wana know what I am. (But at least you know what you are.)

I wonder if that was supposed to be even mildly insulting.


I don't seem to have a list of all the games released in 1994 lying around, but I did own a playstation while my mate had an N64.

Kind of irrelevant since FFVII came out in 1997.


I followed all of playstations releases around that time and ff7 had better gameplay and longevity than any of them.

haha I'd love to see you prove that, especially considering that it played exactly fucking like the SNES games. Except in 3D, of course.


Perhaps maybe goldeneye was one of the few that I gave anywhere near the same playing time.

Now make that relevant.


It was the first rpg since zelda to attract any kind of popular following and became the benchmark for any rpg since.

First, it's not a real RPG and assigning it that label is a stain upon the genre. I say this all the time and very few of your kind ever listen, much less present a valid defense, so you may simply disregard that point.

The Legend of Zelda was NOT a role-playing game, no matter how you slice it. It is an action/adventure series. Calling that an RPG simply shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. I wonder if ignorance on that level is flammable...

You want a benchmark for RPGs? Look at Baldur's Gate. It came out around the same time and truly offered a new experience. Its influence is undeniably strong even now. FFVII was only a benchmark in terms of its marketing. That's what made it popular. That's why it sold so well. It remains popular because a lot of the people who bought it then only did so because of the TV ads that showed the FMV graphics, having never played that type of game before and having no understanding at all about what games are supposed to be like.


And if you don't include graphics, for obvious reasons, any game magazine will tell you it is still the defintive rpg.

Game magazines are incredibly disreputable sources, as a general rule, since they're paid off by the publishers of high-profile games through advertisements. And even so, many of them now drop FFVII off (or at least down in) their rankings in favor of FFVI. Look at IGN's recent top 100 list for an example of that.

Yes it is supposed to be insulting.
Don't you understand that it probably did play the same as all the other ones except that this one had a great script and storyline.

You seem to know more than me about what is a true rpg, so, no I don't understand what you mean. FF7 IS AN RPG. Thats how it was advertised. Its a role playing game, you play the role of cloud. Same with Zelda, you PLAY THE ROLE OF LINK.

A lot of people bought ff7, like me, because they went and bought a game magazine that gave it the highest ratings and excellent reviews. I don't even remeber it being on telly. Fine call me commercial, but how else am I supposed to know if a game is good or not before its released unless its from an unofficial game magazine like PLAY. How did you hear of Balders Dash?

If magazines arn't good sources for objective reviewing then any quality game out there is't actullay any good, its just because they said it was good. Where else am I supposed to find an objective review?

Yes it is supposed to be insulting.

Well, you failed miserably to achieve that result.


Don't you understand that it probably did play the same as all the other ones except that this one had a great script and storyline.

Did you never play FFVI? The story in that was no simpler and it had better character development, as well as infinitely better dialogue.


You seem to know more than me about what is a true rpg, so, no I don't understand what you mean. FF7 IS AN RPG. Thats how it was advertised. Its a role playing game, you play the role of cloud. Same with Zelda, you PLAY THE ROLE OF LINK.

How can you possibly say that I seem like I know more than you about it, then explicitly state that I'm wrong? You truly are an idiot.

You also have no idea of what role-playing is. By your definition, almost every game ever made (including Pac-Man, for God's sake) is an RPG. Role-playing is about determining the personality, motives, progression, and actions of a character. None of that is controllable in the FF games, so they are classic adventure games, not role-playing games.

See this thread (Thread 29666) for more information.


A lot of people bought ff7, like me, because they went and bought a game magazine that gave it the highest ratings and excellent reviews. I don't even remeber it being on telly. Fine call me commercial, but how else am I supposed to know if a game is good or not before its released unless its from an unofficial game magazine like PLAY.

And its ratings were based very strongly off of the advertising revenue that went to companies who promoted it. Perhaps you're unaware of how thesethings work, but publishers throw money at reviewers to get positive reviews. FFVII was advertised very heavily, so there was tremendous pressure on reviewers to rate it highly.


How did you hear of Balders Dash?

Fail for attempting to slight the game by distorting its name. It's a childish tactic that never helps to make a point. Aside from the person using it being an immature idiot, that is.


If magazines arn't good sources for objective reviewing then any quality game out there is't actullay any good, its just because they said it was good. Where else am I supposed to find an objective review?

You can't. It's almost impossible to find completely objective reviews on anything. All you can do is figure out what elements you care about, look at the concensus, pick out the useful information, and be mindful of the bullshit.

A lot of people bought ff7, like me, because they went and bought a game magazine that gave it the highest ratings and excellent reviews.

If magazines arn't good sources for objective reviewing then any quality game out there is't actullay any good, its just because they said it was good. Where else am I supposed to find an objective review?

It's always worth reading through a number of different magazine sources rather than just the one or two. Some reviews are more accurate than others although of course that's not to say that the more accurate one's are necessarily 100% objective/correct either. You just pretty much have to use your common sense to work out whats valid and what isn't and, as already mentioned, just remember whats useful and disregard the information thats invalid in order to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Roffle, Giga, you have 666 posts.

Anyway, I've posted at least twice about FFVII's "Best game ever" quote being made by a "magazine" that was basically a front for a chain of gaming stores in California--why do the fankids keep bringing up reviews, especially ones made by magazines?

...because anyone with a good sense of determining quality and is not being paid to say that it's good would have no qualms in calling a game mediocre as they see it.

yeh im mindfull of your bullshit.

Because your a pretentious retard, you seem to think I was having a cheapshot at Balder's Gate when actually I was asking a genuine question as to how you heard of it but just spelt the name wrong, but obviously you think its some kind of insult.

The reason it had so much advertising was because it was a good game, and deemed worth it for all that money. Do you think they would bother if the game was bad. Unofficial magazines don't recieve jack-shit from any advertisers. Any review in any magazine has the right to give a bad review and there is absolutly no pressure on them to give a good one. You are talking out of your jeb-end.

The reason it had so much advertising was because it was a good game, and deemed worth it for all that money. Do you think they would bother if the game was bad. Unofficial magazines don't recieve jack-shit from any advertisers. Any review in any magazine has the right to give a bad review and there is absolutly no pressure on them to give a good one. You are talking out of your jeb-end.

You're hopelessly naive if you honestly think that. Advertisement is free coverage that helps sales, Squaresoft likes money. Therefore, extra coverage is worth paying for, and who's to say Game Magazines can't be bribed? I mean, I love Nintendo and most of its games, but even I think that Nintendo Power's reviews are horribly biased.

yeh im mindfull of your bullshit.

Because your a pretentious retard, you seem to think I was having a cheapshot at Balder's Gate when actually I was asking a genuine question as to how you heard of it but just spelt the name wrong, but obviously you think its some kind of insult.

The reason it had so much advertising was because it was a good game, and deemed worth it for all that money. Do you think they would bother if the game was bad. Unofficial magazines don't recieve jack-shit from any advertisers. Any review in any magazine has the right to give a bad review and there is absolutly no pressure on them to give a good one. You are talking out of your jeb-end.

Yeah, I'm roffling here. Magazines make the vast majority of their money from advertisements, whether they're "official" or not. That isn't just gaming mags--that's the industry. If a company is heavily advertising a game in your magazine, why bite the hand that feeds you by giving the game a crap review? The only one talking out of their "jeb-end" (whatever that means) is you.

Man, I hope this little escapade nets me some new hate mail. I haven't had any in a while.

Since when is advertising free? Surely the advertising would only be worth paying for if they had something good there to back it up.

If bribing does happen then I can't imagine it for a game review. Or for large amounts of money at that. Maybe it happens a lot in game magazines, I don't know.

Since when is advertising free? Surely the advertising would only be worth paying for if they had something good there to back it up.

The point of advertisements is to get people to buy your product, in case you haven't figured that out yet. With FFVII, it was advertised so heavily that just about everybody saw at least SOMETHING about it. As a result, it sold a lot of copies. It doesn't matter to the company if the game's really that great, so long as it sells. Squeenix's priority isn't to make excellent games--it is to make money. If they can do so without putting in the extra time and (most importantly) money to make a truly great game, why would they?

The key words are that you don't know. You're trying to argue something you don't know about, and you're looking silly because of it.

I don't know what Joan meant when she said "free," but it probably wasn't accurate. Publishers pay magazines for ad space, just like people pay for ads in newspapers or in phone books. Of course, since game magazines review the products that are advertised within, they're under pressure from the advertisers who pay their bills to give good reviews.

you know you're right. You are both right. All I can say is.....
FINAL FANTASY RULES YEH! WOOOO!

All I can say is.....
FINAL FANTASY RULES YEH! WOOOO!
Wow, new signature material... nahhhh.

How did this thread get from FF7 Truth (my words) to advertising?! This doesnt make sense... And unless you find a paper and a pen on the ground, write your advertisement on it, find a piece of tape, and stick it on a wall, i dont think any advertising is free.

The gargantuan army of drooling fanboys says otherwise. I mean, the FF7 fandom is one messiah away from becoming the next religion.

Seems to me that it practically is already lol

If Final Fantasy VII fandom is the new religion, then I opt for Atheism.

you know you're right. You are both right. All I can say is.....
FINAL FANTASY RULES YEH! WOOOO!

this is what gives gamers in general a bad name

How did this thread get from FF7 Truth (my words) to advertising?!

When advertising is largely responsible for a game's success, talking about said game will eventually lead to talking about its advertising--that is, assuming that the discussion is more than just a massive drool-fest.

I like FFVII not for its popularity, but because it was a big part of my gaming world as a child. I know that this game is hated by a lot of people, but that doesn't really take anything away from the game, or the experiences I've had as a kid growing up. I like this game mostly for the sentimental values, rather than for how popular, or unpopular, it has become.

Exactly. No matter how many flaws I discover in it since my experience on RPGs has grown, in my mind it will always be a great game. And honesty, did not find any flaws until I start listening to FF7haters. But even after I found them, they just would not affect me at all.

And I think that's a good point. Just because the game is flawed, doesn't mean you personally can't enjoy it. And that's really what it's all about, getting back to --- that FFVII may not be the wonderful end-all and be-all of games that some people may say, but on the other end, it's definitely something that a lot of people can and do enjoy, despite its flaws.

Exactly. No matter how many flaws I discover in it since my experience on RPGs has grown, in my mind it will always be a great game. And honesty, did not find any flaws until I start listening to FF7haters. But even after I found them, they just would not affect me at all.

to be honest, i noticed the flaws because of the fanboys drooling and masturbating over everything and anything FFVII
from the get-go i liked FFVI better because unlike the mindless masses, i've been playing RPGs since P&P so i can get over graphics, music, etc. and focus on the story and character development (just to let you know, there was hardly a feasible story and character development was limited to "discovering the truth")

character development was limited to "discovering the truth"

And for the record, that is not character development at all. It is nothing more than clarifying the backstory.

And for the record, that is not character development at all. It is nothing more than clarifying the backstory.

it's nice to know that someone out there understands character development...but i guess not explaining that "discovering the truth" wasn't character development put up a front that i didn't know what character development was >_<

oh well...at least now we all know that FFVII has a very limited plot and no character development

I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

You should hang out in chat, btw.

yeah, i should

If that line of bullshit didn't work for the hundreds of ignorant fankids that came before you, it won't work for you either. If you think those elements were so great, prove it with detailed comparisons against other games of the period.

Ah!!!
I see now!
You finally defined what you mean by "Quality".

It's a comparative value to all the other games that exist. It's not inherently created; it only exists if there are other things to judge it alongside.
Mm?
So a game is quality if it does things the best, better than the ways other games have done it, right?

Mm.
I think that's perfectly fine as a definition. ....
<<
That's my main problem with some critics though--sometimes...they've experienced so much, that they can't enjoy the simplest of things anymore....since they see them as...TOO simple....
I think that while it's fine to compare games to others...don't let other games get in the way of enjoyment of another game! Having a large experience with games is supposed to be enriching...! Not detracting.....

Ah!!!
I see now!
You finally defined what you mean by "Quality".

It's a comparative value to all the other games that exist. It's not inherently created; it only exists if there are other things to judge it alongside.
Mm?
So a game is quality if it does things the best, better than the ways other games have done it, right?

Mm.
I think that's perfectly fine as a definition. ....
<<
That's my main problem with some critics though--sometimes...they've experienced so much, that they can't enjoy the simplest of things anymore....since they see them as...TOO simple....
I think that while it's fine to compare games to others...don't let other games get in the way of enjoyment of another game! Having a large experience with games is supposed to be enriching...! Not detracting.....

on the contrary...Katamari Damacy was a game that was better than FFVII and was far simpler in terms of gameplay (you only used the analog sticks)

Oh--!
Sorry, I'll try to clear things up then....
What I mean by "simple" is what you term as an "unfinished, unpolished plotline, substandard characters" etcetera....
>>

Without other games, what would be termed as "unfinished" or "substandard" would not be substandard or unfinished, because there would be no comparison to be made to what would be an example for "finished" or "standard".

Katamari Damacy is good because it does what it does better than all other games like it. And there are no other games quite like Katamari Damacy....>>
So like, it's unique and wonderful...but by default. And there's nothing wrong with that, too....it's innovative, and oddly capturing.....I loved the game too.....

Final Fantasy VII is bad because there are comparisons and other games like it. It would not be bad if there were no comparisons to make....and that was more the case several years ago than it is now. But still, if you don't busy yourself with thinking about other games being better....FFVII is enjoyable.....
>>

If Final Fantasy VII fandom is the new religion, then I opt for Atheism.

Lol




But still, if you don't busy yourself with thinking about other games being better....FFVII is enjoyable.....
>>

Thats not necessarily true for everyone. It's still possible to enjoy a game while at the same time being aware that others are technically much better, and there are plenty of people who indeed have enjoyed FF7 despite not rating it as a great game.

I still consider the Spiders of Mars to be an enjoyable game, which I first played on the Vic 20 years ago, despite the fact that games have come such a long way since that time.

FFVIII is my favorite

Wow thank you for that ignorant post that really stated nothing important to anyone and was way off topic.


Just like this one.

Thats not necessarily true for everyone. It's still possible to enjoy a game while at the same time being aware that others are technically much better, and there are plenty of people who indeed have enjoyed FF7 despite not rating it as a great game.

Yeah....><
What I said was a bit of a generalization--it doesn't apply directly to everyone....
And like, I fall into the category that you just mentioned...>>

Hm. I'm just trying to figure out...why this argument between fanpeople and non-fanpeople has been going on for so long.....
And hopefully, I'll be able to find a way to help it calm down a bit....

I haven't been able to talk to a fan-person directly...they're like, so difficult to get a hold of >>
And I usually don't get to talk to people like you guys, either--since usually, when I say something, a fan person comes in and then you reply to them, and I end up being ignored.....
But then I found this place!

It actually has really been enlightening and kind of....fun being here so far...=]
Even though you guys are sometimes rude, and people find that intolerable (and I did too! For a while at least....>> And I still think you guys sometimes go too far...)...I think I'm starting to understand why the "FF7 haters" feel the way they do, and maybe that label of "FF7 haters" doesn't really hold the way the fanpeople say it does....

Yeah....><
What I said was a bit of a generalization--it doesn't apply directly to everyone....
And like, I fall into the category that you just mentioned...>>

I wasn't having a jab at you by the way, just pointing out that while some people might analyse a game closely and weigh up everything thats good/bad about it that doesn't necessarily get in the way of their enjoying it on a personal level =)


Hm. I'm just trying to figure out...why this argument between fanpeople and non-fanpeople has been going on for so long.....

The trouble is too many people take a narrow minded approach when it comes to these type of discussions, and it seems that particularly happens alot with FF7.

Too often when a person backs up a statement about aspects of the game being either average or bad with facts in a debate, the person defending the game chooses to come out with rubbish such as "FF7 is the best you're all idiots for saying it's not" etc, as they aren't willing to consider the other person is right in any way or present a reasonable argument. Not suprisingly this leads to those kind of people getting disrespected on here. Thats not to say that all the FF7 fans can't hold a good debate on the subject of the game, but unfortunately a large number of them do get silly.

Mm....
I see what you mean....

A lot of the time, though, the FF7 fanboys I see now just plop in one post something like what you've said ("FF7 is the best you're all idiots for saying it's not"), but then after the replies, never make another post in the topic....
I don't know if they're just doing it as a joke, or maybe that they actually are starting to agree with you guys but just don't want to say it....

I say that because I was a little like that before, except against Alcohol. I used to hate it so much....!
One time, I was assigned to make a persuasive essay, and I thought I would look up some things about Alcohol....statistics, and stuff....
But from the first many results, there were studies all over the place about how Alcohol was good for your health, and decreased heart disease, and all that stuff.... I was like, appalled and indignant at first...it like, felt like a personal blow...but I kind of realized that maybe I was a little too harsh on Alcohol.
Mm, so I'm less stubborn about hating Alcohol now. Though I still think it ruins peoples' lives...>>

Mm....
I see what you mean....

A lot of the time, though, the FF7 fanboys I see now just plop in one post something like what you've said ("FF7 is the best you're all idiots for saying it's not"), but then after the replies, never make another post in the topic....
I don't know if they're just doing it as a joke, or maybe that they actually are starting to agree with you guys but just don't want to say it....

It's true enough that sometimes internet trolls turn up on here who do things like that deliberately to get attention. Still there's been plenty of occasions when FF7 fans have reacted negatively in a debate simply because they can't stand the idea of a game they previously believed to be perfect, proved to be otherwise. It's impossible to have a reasonable and objective discussion with such people, which is often why threads start off as debates then end up as flame wars.

Mm. I think though....the indignance and refusal to listen only happens if we push them a little too much....
If someone had tried to rub it in my face that Alcohol wasn't as bad as I made it out to be (I like, hated it in an almost irrational way), I think I might have acted like a lot of the FF7 fanboy/girl people do, too....

I think if we expressed more of our understanding that they would act that way (since you seem to know and realize that they may feel unhappy with the things you say), maybe it might help....

Usually...when people start to yell, insult or act drastically towards others, it's because they've been trying to express themselves, but no one seems to have understood, so they start taking extreme measures....

Maybe the fanpeople do see the objective criticisms that you are offering, but that kind of criticism doesn't have to do with what they're trying to get across, and they get frustrated that people keep talking about its flaws when they don't matter to them..
If I was in love with an extremely fat and ugly man...and I said "He's the most perfect man in existence." And then someone goes and says, "My god...you're wrong. He is extremely fat and ugly." and went on about proof of him being fat, and him being ugly...and how fat and ugly does not equate to perfect.....Hm. >> I wouldn't NEED you to tell me that, and obviously, that doesn't matter to me. That wasn't why I said that he was the "perfect man" in the first place.

Or maybe it's because so many of them can barely type to save their lives, or just wanna shout "YUZZAH FFVII GREATEST GAME EVER SCREW ALL YOU H8TERZ"

Or maybe it's because so many of them can barely type to save their lives, or just wanna shout "YUZZAH FFVII GREATEST GAME EVER SCREW ALL YOU H8TERZ"

what's sad is that shit's true and it pisses me off to no end

Mm. I think though....the indignance and refusal to listen only happens if we push them a little too much...

I think if we expressed more of our understanding that they would act that way (since you seem to know and realize that they may feel unhappy with the things you say), maybe it might help....

Thing is plenty of those fans still choose to get like that even when nobody has said anything to them. What often happens is that these people find a thread based on the subject and assume that just because it's about FF7 it's an opportunity to rant and rave about how much they loved the game, without making the effort to read and consider what it is the thread is really about. When, quite rightly, they get corrected they post irritable and immature replies which is unnecessary.

Admittedly making the effort to explain where it is we're coming from in a civil manner sometimes solves the problem. However for every time that happens there are more fans who stubbornly refuse to take any of that into account. You could try and be reasonable with them all day and still not get anywhere. Not suprisingly this leads to others losing patience.


Maybe the fanpeople do see the objective criticisms that you are offering, but that kind of criticism doesn't have to do with what they're trying to get across, and they get frustrated that people keep talking about its flaws when they don't matter to them..
If I was in love with an extremely fat and ugly man...and I said "He's the most perfect man in existence." And then someone goes and says, "My god...you're wrong. He is extremely fat and ugly." and went on about proof of him being fat, and him being ugly...and how fat and ugly does not equate to perfect.....Hm. >> I wouldn't NEED you to tell me that, and obviously, that doesn't matter to me. That wasn't why I said that he was the "perfect man" in the first place.

Thats fair enough analogy, but then they need to realise that this isn't an internet community that exists just as a sounding board for their own personal feelings. If they come across threads that hold no interest for them or in which they aren't interested in considering what other people have to say then it's generally expected that they would use enough common sense not to post in them.

Ahh, alright....
All the points you brought up were very reasonable, and I think it's important that the fanpeople understand those things....

I'll try to communicate those things to a fanperson I meet the next time I talk to one....