Anyone else disagree with the final results?

o_O

Click (http://www.warmech.net/special/awards/awards.html).

I think you'll find that most people have seen this and generally only agree with a fraction of what he says. There are some pretty bizarre/unjustifiable choices there, like Onion Knight for best character.

I've seen this before. Most of it is just utter shit.

I've seen this before. Most of it is just utter shit.

Mmmm.

I found it yonks ago.

Then I lost it.

How much time though would you need to do something like that?

The only thing I did was write a weird essay/article on the compilation of final fantasy.

Heh.

That stuff is crap.

Yeah.

It all looks like something a Melbournian would type up.
XD

Lol.

I didn't do it.

And I would be surprised.

You wouldn't believe how many people don't actually know or play Final Fantasy.

Took me like, almost a year to get my friend to watch.

And when she played she spent the FIRST battle going "AHHHH AHHHHH OH MY GOD AHHHHHH".

o_O

The rest haven't heard.

They like Nintendos .. and play Mario and Pokemon.

o_O

Its the opposite in Canberra. EVERYONE knows about FF. Even the jocks at my highschool played it. Who the heck plays Nintendo anymore?

I've seen this before. Most of it is just utter shit.

Crap of the first rate.

The nerds.

:P

Serially.

Jocks play Final Fantasy.

My GOD.

What has come to the world?

Next, exotic female dancers will be feminists and comic book geeks wont be able to read.

:O

*Shock*.

*Horror*.

:D

Lists like this are just supposed to spark discussion. I mean, obviously, they can be made better than others, but it's not an end-all, be-all. Instead of being a condescending prick and just saying "man, this is shit," offer your opinion and counter-points.

I gotta say, "worst music" runner-up for ff6 kind hurts me right here *taps heart*. If anything, I'd put it in best.

Some good, some bad, opinions differ, but this...



IS BULLSHIT.

Thoe of us capable of arguing about the actual quality of the games (in other words, the people that count) generally agree that it is pretty much correct, although it's debatable which of the two was actually the worst.

Some good, some bad, opinions differ, but this...



IS BULLSHIT.

Exactly.

Final Fantasy VII and VIII are good games, but they are different from the rest episodes, that's making them the worst FF games. For example, their world is a modern world with cars, and space shuttles, etc, when the rest plays in a medieval fantasy world. And that's better.

Hmmm.

You make a good point.

Most people say that FFVII is the best. I think most people like it for it's materia system. (At least, that's what i liked in it most.) It was a unique system with all materia leveling up and gaining abilities, that was good. Really.
As for the VIII, that system sucked... I didn't liked it for a few reasons: Only weapon equip, junction system tried to replace the equipment, and I didn't like it. But the summons were cool :). I like FF9 more because it has more things in common with the FFV or VI. FFVI was my first real rpg, and my first FF that I played, that may be the reason I like medieval fantasy worlds more than futuristic "I-blast-your-head-off-with-my-lasergun" themed worlds.

FFIX Rulz. :D

Thoe of us capable of arguing about the actual quality of the games (in other words, the people that count) generally agree that it is pretty much correct, although it's debatable which of the two was actually the worst.


Those that count? You are contradicting the whole concept of a debate if you aren't giving others the opportunity to have their own opinion. Don't think I'm being a cunt here, in fact, wait, yes do. What is a forum for sir, if you close your mind to your own opinion and dismiss those with different opinions as people that apparently don't count?

How does one learn when debating with themself, or at best, those who share the same opinion?

A greater post count doesn't grant you supremacy in all cases so shall we be equals and try to salvage this thread?


For example, their world [FF7&FF8] is a modern world with cars, and space shuttles, etc, when the rest plays in a medieval fantasy world

What don't you like about 'modern' styled FF's?

You just gained my unadulterated admiration.

What don't you like about 'modern' styled FF's?


...their world is a modern world with cars, and space shuttles, etc, when the rest plays in a medieval fantasy world. And that's better.

Im gonna comment on the Coolest Summon part.

I think its so wrong. FFX Shiva wins because she clicks her fingers?
What about Bahamut Zero from FFVII? It fires a blast of energy at the planet from inner space. Or Anima. Or Eden.

These awards are based on the author's opinions. It isn't supposed to be an unbiased comparison of all the FF games (even though that would have been far more useful). He obviously thought the finger snapping thing was cooler than a Garden that destroys the universe or a mummified monstrosity that sucks the party into an alternate dimension and beats the shit out of them with its fists.

To each there own.

I was just trying to spark discussion on something is all.
I understand they are opinions and not law.

Lol.

But I do agree with both on some levels.

And for some people (like me) the simplicity of Shiva is better than the destruction of Bahamut ZERO.

Besides, BZ takes too long to do his thang.

I totally agree with the best battle system. FFX winner and FFX-2 second.
Some good points are made.

Those that count? You are contradicting the whole concept of a debate if you aren't giving others the opportunity to have their own opinion. Don't think I'm being a cunt here, in fact, wait, yes do. What is a forum for sir, if you close your mind to your own opinion and dismiss those with different opinions as people that apparently don't count?

How does one learn when debating with themself, or at best, those who share the same opinion?

A greater post count doesn't grant you supremacy in all cases so shall we be equals and try to salvage this thread?

Quick, look over your shoulder and try to catch a fleeting glimpse of the point you missed as it goes scurrying over the horizon!

It has been shown time and time again that there are far more of us here who are capable of effectively arguing against the game than for it. And of course, in a debate, the only people that really count are the ones that can present a strong argument for their beliefs. This is not the same as discounting anyone who doesn't agree with me.

Mm. Alright...
I don't like doing this, but I will....

Sometimes...you seem to say that it is most likely that people who are capable of presenting a strong argument are those that are against the game. ("It has been shown time and time again that there are far more of us here who are capable of effectively arguing against the game than for it.")

So that means, in general (not in all cases, of course...!), you believe that people who enjoy the game cannot present a strong argument for their beliefs (it is a based assumption--based off your experience...but it is still a generalization).


So--you believe that when someone doesn't agree with you, it is most likely that they don't have a strong argument to back them, and you say you discount the people who don't have a strong argument.

So in general, are you really not discounting the people who don't agree with you?
You might not be meaning to....but some of the things you've seen from before, and the prejudices that come from that might change the manner in which you speak to people....

That is a really strange and illogical conclusion. However, I honestly can't be bothered to correct you right now. Anyway, all you're doing is fishing for some kind of defense since you really have nothing to go on right now.

><
I was hoping that I made it make sense, but I must not have written it very well...

I'll summarize it again here.

My main point is that you seem to assume that people are incapable of making a strong argument if they think that FF7 is a good game.
This might not be the real case, but this is the kind of feeling you give me....

I'd like to let you know...
"It has been shown time and time again that there are far more of us here who are capable of effectively arguing against the game than for it."
That this proves only what was in the past, not what is happening right now.

I want to give you a good debate....and I'll be for the game, and you can be against the game. The subject matter is Final Fantasy VII. (The PSX release, not the PC release)
I'll do my best to provide valid and strong arguments...I won't do "psychological" arguments (which was what my last one was....since I really think that you are a good person, even if you don't agree....you're just cynical about having the knowledge you do for some reasons, and I was trying to figure out why....)
And I know I can rely on you to provide valid and strong arguments (and I can rely on you to provide sarcasm too...XP But I want to just get to the meat of the argument, so I'll try my best not to do something like that back to you)

You may start with a point.
Or maybe I will start....>>
FF7 was the first RPG to use 3D computer graphics, with fully rendered characters on pre-rendered backgrounds. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 11 Oct 2006]
This is a breakthrough in video gaming history! So FFVII IS a breakthrough....
Not just by marketing, but by the product itself.
(I was confused, since in the other thread, you said that the only thing remotely break-through ish about FFVII was its marketing, but I thought its graphics were also like this, but then you seemed to know what you were talking about....)

Read that entry again. It says it was the first in the Final Fantasy series to use 3D computer graphics.

Ah...

Released in 1997, it was the first game in the Final Fantasy series to be produced for the Sony PlayStation, the first to be ported to Windows-based computers, and the first to use 3D computer graphics,[1] featuring fully rendered characters on pre-rendered backgrounds.
XP
It was placed so far after the subject of the sentence that it was a bit misleading....

Alright! So it is the first Final Fantasy game to use computer generated graphics! That is a fact....I'll continue presenting facts about the game and then get into the debate once Prak responds.
Next--

FFVII was longer than any console RPG before it, spanning across 3 discs. [Boor, Jay. http://psx.ign.com/articles/150/150494p1.html 3 Sep 1997]
It is also a cinematic masterpiece for its time!
Hours of production time were put into the game's FMV sequences, and there is a lot of attention paid to the characters' in-battle polygon models.

whoever made that totally masterbates to robinhood...

since when should the time and place dictate weither or not it's a true FF game? An FF game is whatever the creators make it to be... sure ...it could be a bad game just as well as a good one.... but ive played alot of FF games... and im not going to say that VII is my favorite, because im not sure that it is.... but it definetly isnt the fucking worst....

><

Or maybe I will start....>>
FF7 was the first RPG to use 3D computer graphics, with fully rendered characters on pre-rendered backgrounds. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 11 Oct 2006]....

Ok, well as no one else has responded to this just yet hope no one minds if i put in a reply to this.

On that last point, I will counter that by pointing out that 3D graphics alone don't make a good game.


><

This is a breakthrough in video gaming history! So FFVII IS a breakthrough....
Not just by marketing, but by the product itself.


Do you have any other examples to give of how this was?

My main point is that you seem to assume that people are incapable of making a strong argument if they think that FF7 is a good game.
This might not be the real case, but this is the kind of feeling you give me....

No, my point was that the people we've had on this site over the past couple of years who've defended the game did a less effective job of it than those attacking the game. By and large, the critics make stronger arguments. It is an observation based on numerous discussions involving a variety of people.


FF7 was the first RPG to use 3D computer graphics, with fully rendered characters on pre-rendered backgrounds. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 11 Oct 2006]
This is a breakthrough in video gaming history! So FFVII IS a breakthrough....
Not just by marketing, but by the product itself.
(I was confused, since in the other thread, you said that the only thing remotely break-through ish about FFVII was its marketing, but I thought its graphics were also like this, but then you seemed to know what you were talking about....)

First of all, it does not matter what genre the game is in. Graphics were improving across the board at the time due to improvements in technology and 3D games were quickly becoming the norm. FFVII was not an influencing factor in this. Only the technology was. Therefore, that point is absolutely invalid.


FFVII was longer than any console RPG before it, spanning across 3 discs. [Boor, Jay. http://psx.ign.com/articles/150/150494p1.html 3 Sep 1997]

Actually, it wasn't longer at all. The vast majority of that disc space was consumed by FMV scenes.


It is also a cinematic masterpiece for its time!

An entirely personal and biased opinion, invalid in every sense in a debate.


Hours of production time were put into the game's FMV sequences, and there is a lot of attention paid to the characters' in-battle polygon models.

So what? That doesn't make a game good or bad. It just means time was spent on it.

FFVII was longer than any console RPG before it, spanning across 3 discs. [Boor, Jay. http://psx.ign.com/articles/150/150494p1.html 3 Sep 1997]

Errr, how about all the previous FF titles? FFVI for one, at the very least, breaks even in terms of time required.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. My FFVI save file with more or less all sidequests complete and my main party at a fairly high level (80+) took just under 30 hours to amass. It took me at least 35 hours just to complete the linear story in ever game post FFVI except Tactics and FFX-2.

However, FFV did take me a significant amount of time to complete, somewhere in the range of 38 hours (with Omega and Shinryu defeated). While ever other FF game before FFVI only took me around 20-24 hours, I could picture games like Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia which were on much larger cartridges being longer (haven't got far enough in either to really make that judgment though so don't quote me on it).

>>
I wasn't the one who said that it took the longest time!!
It was that IGN reviewer (I gave you guys the source)...

I know that this game can be beaten in 17 hours...
I think that the reviewer meant that it had the most number of discs, and that means there's more data and programming in the game than any game preceding (though it's mostly FMV's, especially in the last disc).


By and large, the critics make stronger arguments. It is an observation based on numerous discussions involving a variety of people.

I think that holds true for everything.
(Not only FFVII)
It's always easier to identify and prove something wrong rather than to prove something a person has enjoyed is good.

We could talk about the flaws and the good parts of the original NES Mario Bros., and I could talk about its flaws and give criticism all day. Even with all the criticism, it doesn't change the fact that the game also has many good points....
And that it was just...simply fun.

There's a beauty in Mario's simplicity, and I think there's a kind of beauty in FFVII's simplicity, too.

Just so you know, in a debate, saying "I think" means that you have no confidence in your assertion.

Now as for your comment about the reviewer, you can NEVER trust reviewers on major websites to be completely honest with regard to games that their site has advertised. A great many of FFVII's major reviews are from sources that were paid well for advertising the game, so they were under considerable pressure to rate it highly. Frankly, the claim that the number of discs reflects the amount of data in the game is ludicrous, as it can easily be proven that the vast majority of the disc space is consumed by FMVs, and much more of the space on each disc is consumed by elements that are replicated across each disc. Case in point, each disc contains all data for every character, including all weapons and abilities. The same goes for locations as well.

As for criticizing something being easier than defneding it, that's not true either. You can look at our arguments about FFIX or FFX-2 to see that most of the same people who bash VII defend those games and we generally make our opponents look like idiots.

Frankly, the claim that the number of discs reflects the amount of data in the game is ludicrous, as it can easily be proven that the vast majority of the disc space is consumed by FMVs, and much more of the space on each disc is consumed by elements that are replicated across each disc.
Mmhm, I know that--I said it in my previous post....

The reason I use "I think" is not because I don't have confidence in my assertion. I have confidence in my assertions as MY assertions. If I did not say "I think," then I am making a generalization I believe to be true seem as though it were a fact, even if it may not be...and that would be overextending myself.

I love FFIX, and I also really enjoyed FFX-2's battle system.
But there is still criticism that can be made about both of those games...
We can start now if you'd like, but if you still want to talk about FF7, we can continue....

I've heard reasons for hating FF7 before...I've heard so many times that FF7 is garbage, and I'm pretty sure you've said it so many times too, that you must be tired of it....

I want to ask you--
If you were assigned to defend FF7 in a debate, what would your arguments be? (Please try to come up with something, too...!)
I know what I would say if I was against FF7, since I see the flaws too.
But for FF7, right now...
I will recount the things that I enjoyed....

When I first played FF7, I was like...9. (I was playing my Dad's saved game)
I didn't know any of the story that went on....so when I came back to start FFVII later, when I was in high school, what I remembered wasn't the story, or any of the events (except for the Disc1 ending spoiler)...what I remembered the most was the Gold Saucer, chocobo racing, Neo Bahamut, and the Battle Arena. >>
And I remembered them to be fun!
(What would be an example of "not fun" would be FFX's chocobo minigames......>>)
During my replay of FF7, I rediscovered the story, and all the things that I missed and never knew about...
I really thought FF7 was a great game.
FF7's difficult to put down during the first few hours, when you play through Midgar, especially if it's the first time through. (I had the same experience with FFIX, too)
And I really could hate the ShinRa company...
The Sector7 Plate scene was devastating--the President was willing to destroy an entire portion of his city and the people in it in order to get rid of the resistance, and he had it planned out so that the resistance, AVALANCHE, was the one that was blamed...
And he watched his plan from his building, and watched calmly as thousands of his people died.
(Mm, Kefka and Luca Blight are horrible heartless, too, but I was playing FFVII! I'm not supposed to think of those things at that moment since I'm doing something else.)
I've always hated ShinRA more than Sephiroth...>>
But we can talk about Sephiroth soon.

Kudos for being FFVII's knight in shining armour, but for all your conviction and determination, it's all getting rather stale. I feel that you could be an interesting regular on FFS, FFVII is not the only game in the series and there are a great many topics to select from, be it games or other topical discussions, as well as those that are far from topical :rolleyes:. So why don't you try your hand at something else?

But the most important thing in a debate is the objective of convincing others that your point of view is the correct one. In order to do that, you have to sound entirely certain that what you're saying is the unblemished truth. Therefore, you should only deal in things you believe to be the absolute truth and speak them as such. If you think something is subject to individual interpretation, you either have to omit it or twist it to your advantage somehow.

Frankly, I could list FFVII's flaws all day. It is one of the most decidedly mediocre games I have ever played, and one of the worst adventure games (cos it's not an RPG) I've ever seen. Some of the main points are:


It plays exactly like an SNES game with upgraded graphics. None of the controls had evolved in the slightest.
Movement in the early parts of the game could be entirely confusing. Having to hold down a button to run, which most people would want to do all the time, is idiotic.
The game's story is incomplete and unsatisfying.
The story has absolutely no plot twists. Each event is a direct and obvious continuation of the last, never dropping any major revelation that forces you to re-examine anything that's happened before or massively change your outlook on any characters.
The materia system devalued the individuality of the characters, essentially rendering the party dynamic worthless.
Materia management lacked several key sorting and switching options, making it unnecessarily tedious.
The characters lacked personality depth, as detailed thoroughly in another thread.
The game's incompletion is obvious, as there are several important-looking people or places that are never utilized. Case in point: the infamous man in the pipe.
Too many minigames tied into the main story path, most of which lack polish and could have easily been omitted.
Poor scripting, instanced by numerous leaps of absurd logic, such as when the characters determine when leaving Midgar that defeating Sephiroth will let them save the world, before they even know the world is in danger.
Too many events/places that are nearly impossible to find without a walkthrough and were obviously intended to help sell the guide.

I can go on, but I think that should suffice for now. I can argue each of those more fully if you want to take on any of them.

Kudos for being FFVII's knight in shining armour, but for all your conviction and determination, it's all getting rather stale. I feel that you could be an interesting regular on FFS, FFVII is not the only game in the series and there are a great many topics to select from, be it games or other topical discussions, as well as those that are far from topical :rolleyes:. So why don't you try your hand at something else?

Mm...
I posted in the FFClassics thread somewhere, and in FFIX's somewhere, too...=]
I think I'm...mm...attempting to be "FFVII's knightress in shining armor"...but I'm not sure how well I'm doing....

Prak the transformer-bot is being a very good evil dragon thing right now....
XD

And Prak--! I debate not to win, but to open myself to new interpretations, so maybe that's why our viewpoints differ so much...we debate for different reasons....




It plays exactly like an SNES game with upgraded graphics. None of the controls had evolved in the slightest.

>> I have no argument there...
Hm. They *should* have put in analog, and that was mean of them (or lazy of them) not to....



Movement in the early parts of the game could be entirely confusing. Having to hold down a button to run, which most people would want to do all the time, is idiotic.


Mm...(I think you meant "wouldn't want to do" XP)
Yeah--I agree. There was this one person who didn't know they could run for the entire Midgar section....and when they came out into the open, and were running, they were confused....>>



The game's story is incomplete and unsatisfying.

Plot holes are everywhere! I think them using the Compilation games to explain them is a bit tacked on at some times...
But the game's story's incompleteness led to many interpretations of the ending, and different theories...and I think that was done on purpose.
FF7 leaves a lot to the player's imagination, and I think for a while SquareEnix felt that players should feel free to imagine however the ending was.
This incompleteness also somewhat accounts for all the fanfiction that's running around of FF7. =] It's good fodder for the imagination when things are incomplete, sometimes....

I just guess it's debatable whether FF7's gone too far and was a little too much incomplete.



The story has absolutely no plot twists. Each event is a direct and obvious continuation of the last, never dropping any major revelation that forces you to re-examine anything that's happened before or massively change your outlook on any characters.


>>
I was pretty surprised when I found out Cloud never did what he claimed to do all that time, and he had been lying to everyone (including himself and the player).
It was also a little surprising to find out Sephiroth's father...
Mm, but that might not have been surprising for you...
Even though there aren't any obvious clues, if you look closely, both of those have hints throughout the game....
We could have a debate about this one, if you'd like....



The materia system devalued the individuality of the characters, essentially rendering the party dynamic worthless.


Yes....
The only time the characters you have in the party matter is early-game...
End-game, you can put in whomever you like....
It's both a good and a bad thing--since if you like a character, you don't lose anything by not choosing a different character.
The bad part is just like you've said.....><



Materia management lacked several key sorting and switching options, making it unnecessarily tedious.


There was only one sorting option, which sorted the materia by type. That usually worked for me, but a wider range of sorting methods would have been nice...
There's an "Exchange" option in the menu, though, which allows you to exchange materia between party members both in your party and outside...(I didn't know about this until a bit later, but it's a nice feature that some people miss...=])



The characters lacked personality depth, as detailed thoroughly in another thread.


<< I wanted to say something about this, but couldn't find a time to bring it up....
I think that FFVII's characters aren't really complete avatars. An 'avatar' would be like the original Superman, who was the epitome of what is "heroic", and he never had problems and always was the best model of what a 'perfect' person should be. (Newer Superman comics and media decided to delve into the problems he might have, since the 'perfect model' kind wasn't as appealing).
FFVII's characters do have flaws, and they do have problems...they are sometimes wrong about others, and wrong about themselves....
Barret, at the very beginning, after the first bombing, had heard on the news of the damage they had done...
It's only hinted at, but he was appalled by what he had done. (The bomb blast was larger than it was supposed to be, and had killed many innocent people)
Hm. I don't want to make this post too long....I will make this argument separately....



The game's incompletion is obvious, as there are several important-looking people or places that are never utilized. Case in point: the infamous man in the pipe.


<<
You mean the "This guy are sick" guy, right? XD
That also brings up the bad localization...XP
Even with all its marketing, they didn't really have a very clean translation....



Too many minigames tied into the main story path, most of which lack polish and could have easily been omitted.


I thought that gave variety and was kind of a fun break from just running and battling....
=]
The game would be fine without them, of course, but since they're there already, I don't want them to be taken away, either...



Poor scripting, instanced by numerous leaps of absurd logic, such as when the characters determine when leaving Midgar that defeating Sephiroth will let them save the world, before they even know the world is in danger.


There is a reason that Cloud believes that they must pursue Sephiroth.
The reason doesn't follow logic, either--Hojo at Costa Del Sol tells you about the "JENOVA Reunion theory".
Cloud said he has to find Sephiroth to settle things with him.
Hojo, when he heard Cloud say that, just laughed and said, "Ha ha ha...so that's how you see it...."
He only had the urge to find Sephiroth because of the JENOVA cells calling him to Sephiroth, but Cloud thought it was because of something else.



Too many events/places that are nearly impossible to find without a walkthrough and were obviously intended to help sell the guide.


Yeah--
That chocobo sage guy was so frustrating....>> I'm not sure if anyone would have ever gotten a gold chocobo through breeding without a guide....
Maybe someone has, though...! But I haven't...I used a chocobo breeding guide in an EGM magazine...>>
Mm, and this goes for many other things, too...
I agree--sometimes, a lot of FFVII is just running around exploring and finding things.....(if you don't have a guide)
Zelda: Ocarina of Time is also a lot like this sometimes, too, though...
I think some people find it fun, and others find it a bit frustrating....

And Prak--! I debate not to win, but to open myself to new interpretations, so maybe that's why our viewpoints differ so much...we debate for different reasons....

Then that's a problem. If you want to read the views of others, you simply ask questions. If you dispute them, then you need to be prepared to see it through and try to win.


>> I have no argument there...
Hm. They *should* have put in analog, and that was mean of them (or lazy of them) not to....

To be fair, that's one way I really can't fault the game. Analog would have helped a bit, but it wasn't available on PSX at that time. What I refer to is the fact that the battle system could have been made faster and more entertaining, yet it was actually dumbed down since it played exactly like the previous game with one less party member.


Mm...(I think you meant "wouldn't want to do" XP)
Yeah--I agree. There was this one person who didn't know they could run for the entire Midgar section....and when they came out into the open, and were running, they were confused....>>

My wording was correct, actually. I was saying that people would want to run all the time instead of walking. You simply interpreted it differently. ;)


Plot holes are everywhere! I think them using the Compilation games to explain them is a bit tacked on at some times...
But the game's story's incompleteness led to many interpretations of the ending, and different theories...and I think that was done on purpose.
FF7 leaves a lot to the player's imagination, and I think for a while SquareEnix felt that players should feel free to imagine however the ending was.
This incompleteness also somewhat accounts for all the fanfiction that's running around of FF7. =] It's good fodder for the imagination when things are incomplete, sometimes....

There are numerous factors which disprove the intentional incompletion theory. First and most obvious, if it was intended to be open to interpretation, no sequels would have been made. The very existence of the compilation disproves that perception of Square's intent. After that, there's the fact that the game was rushed out the door before it was complete. Square acknowledged that on more than one occasion. Certain things were left incomplete for the sake of getting it on shelves as quickly as possible. Did you know that higher res field models (that looked like the battle models) were being worked on, but left out so it could get released on time?

Then apply a bit of logic to past events and you can see the reasons. Square was uncomfortable about FFVII's release. That's confirmed. They were wary of how well it would go over and were more or less shocked when it became a hit. Why? Because they knew it wasn't up to snuff. It wasn't because they were doing anything new and risky. It's because the product was sub-standard. However, they soon noticed fans making up theories about the game and discussing its flaws as though they were strengths, so they ran with the perception of the rabid fans and claimed that it was open to interpretation.


>>
I was pretty surprised when I found out Cloud never did what he claimed to do all that time, and he had been lying to everyone (including himself and the player).
It was also a little surprising to find out Sephiroth's father...
Mm, but that might not have been surprising for you...
Even though there aren't any obvious clues, if you look closely, both of those have hints throughout the game....
We could have a debate about this one, if you'd like....

All well and good, but none of that ever forced you to actually re-examine anything or change your outlook.


Yes....
The only time the characters you have in the party matter is early-game...
End-game, you can put in whomever you like....
It's both a good and a bad thing--since if you like a character, you don't lose anything by not choosing a different character.
The bad part is just like you've said.....><

There is no good part from a design perspective. There's only a good part from a fan perspective, and that one generally doesn't look at anything but how much they liked the game as it is and ignores how much better it should have been.


There was only one sorting option, which sorted the materia by type. That usually worked for me, but a wider range of sorting methods would have been nice...
There's an "Exchange" option in the menu, though, which allows you to exchange materia between party members both in your party and outside...(I didn't know about this until a bit later, but it's a nice feature that some people miss...=])

I'm not sure what version of the game you played, but mine did not allow switching of materia from characters that were not in the active party.


<< I wanted to say something about this, but couldn't find a time to bring it up....
I think that FFVII's characters aren't really complete avatars. An 'avatar' would be like the original Superman, who was the epitome of what is "heroic", and he never had problems and always was the best model of what a 'perfect' person should be. (Newer Superman comics and media decided to delve into the problems he might have, since the 'perfect model' kind wasn't as appealing).
FFVII's characters do have flaws, and they do have problems...they are sometimes wrong about others, and wrong about themselves....
Barret, at the very beginning, after the first bombing, had heard on the news of the damage they had done...
It's only hinted at, but he was appalled by what he had done. (The bomb blast was larger than it was supposed to be, and had killed many innocent people)

Again, you're reading things into it that the game itself gives no reason to think. You say Barrett's remorse was hinted at? Why is a "hint" conclusive in any way? And just what was this hint anyway?

Also, you're going out of your way to over-dramatize your descriptions of things. "They are sometimes wrong about others, and wrong about themselves" sounds like a blurb to sell the game. Frankly, it's an insult to my intelligence and I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to facts and reason for the purpose of this discussion.


<<
You mean the "This guy are sick" guy, right? XD
That also brings up the bad localization...XP
Even with all its marketing, they didn't really have a very clean translation....

You will not receive any disagreement from me on that.


I thought that gave variety and was kind of a fun break from just running and battling....
=]
The game would be fine without them, of course, but since they're there already, I don't want them to be taken away, either...

You're skating around my point. The point is that things like that should either be entirely optional or not require victory to progress. As it stands, things like the motorcycle, submarine, and snowboarding games disrupt the flow of the game and serve no justifiable purpose.


There is a reason that Cloud believes that they must pursue Sephiroth.
The reason doesn't follow logic, either--Hojo at Costa Del Sol tells you about the "JENOVA Reunion theory".
Cloud said he has to find Sephiroth to settle things with him.
Hojo, when he heard Cloud say that, just laughed and said, "Ha ha ha...so that's how you see it...."
He only had the urge to find Sephiroth because of the JENOVA cells calling him to Sephiroth, but Cloud thought it was because of something else.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. I'm pointing out that the game's scripting is laughable and you're not exactly disproving that.


That chocobo sage guy was so frustrating....>> I'm not sure if anyone would have ever gotten a gold chocobo through breeding without a guide....
Maybe someone has, though...! But I haven't...I used a chocobo breeding guide in an EGM magazine...>>
Mm, and this goes for many other things, too...
I agree--sometimes, a lot of FFVII is just running around exploring and finding things.....(if you don't have a guide)
Zelda: Ocarina of Time is also a lot like this sometimes, too, though...
I think some people find it fun, and others find it a bit frustrating....

Again, you're kind of skating around the main point. The primary point is that there was absolutely no way that people were going to find some of the stuff in the game without a guide. The game was obviously intended to be that way since the guide was aggressively marketed with it.

It seems to me like the two of us agree on a lot of this. Frankly, if you agree with as much as it seems, I don't see how you can continue arguing that the game is a "masterpiece." In almost every respect, it is decidedly mediocre. As I've said before, I honestly have no trouble with people liking the game. I just don't like the way fans loudly proclaim it to be the best fucking game ever when it clearly isn't even close.

Then that's a problem. If you want to read the views of others, you simply ask questions. If you dispute them, then you need to be prepared to see it through and try to win.

Ah...
It's true that if I only wanted to see the views of others, I'd only ask questions....
But I think I want others to try to see the other point of view, too--that's why I'm disputing....
I usually have "Open your mind!" disputes rather than "I am right!" disputes....



There are numerous factors which disprove the intentional incompletion theory. First and most obvious, if it was intended to be open to interpretation, no sequels would have been made. The very existence of the compilation disproves that perception of Square's intent. After that, there's the fact that the game was rushed out the door before it was complete. Square acknowledged that on more than one occasion. Certain things were left incomplete for the sake of getting it on shelves as quickly as possible. Did you know that higher res field models (that looked like the battle models) were being worked on, but left out so it could get released on time?

Then apply a bit of logic to past events and you can see the reasons. Square was uncomfortable about FFVII's release. That's confirmed. They were wary of how well it would go over and were more or less shocked when it became a hit. Why? Because they knew it wasn't up to snuff. It wasn't because they were doing anything new and risky. It's because the product was sub-standard. However, they soon noticed fans making up theories about the game and discussing its flaws as though they were strengths, so they ran with the perception of the rabid fans and claimed that it was open to interpretation.

Ahh...! I see.
I was about to site one of the producers saying that they left it open on purpose, but since it's possible that they made that up afterwards >> (as you pointed out), then what they say isn't exactly proof anymore...


All well and good, but none of that ever forced you to actually re-examine anything or change your outlook.

?
When I found out Cloud was lying, my outlook on him changed...>>
Maybe it didn't for you, though...I suppose the effect of different storyline twists vary for different people....


I'm not sure what version of the game you played, but mine did not allow switching of materia from characters that were not in the active party.

Alright! I'll show you how, since lots of people ask this question...
In the "Materia" menu, to the left of the Armor slots is a choice that lets you Arrange the materia. When you click on that, under "Arrange" is "Exchange". That's the option that lets you switch between in and out-party members. =]



Again, you're reading things into it that the game itself gives no reason to think. You say Barrett's remorse was hinted at? Why is a "hint" conclusive in any way? And just what was this hint anyway?

Also, you're going out of your way to over-dramatize your descriptions of things. "They are sometimes wrong about others, and wrong about themselves" sounds like a blurb to sell the game. Frankly, it's an insult to my intelligence and I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to facts and reason for the purpose of this discussion.

I'm sorry...><
I didn't mean it as an insult...I just thought that it's true.

The time when Barret talks about his remorse is in non-mandatory dialogue, and Jessie talks about it, too (during the 'meeting' the first time in the 7th heaven). Jessie is looking at a computer and talking about the explosion of the reactor, and asks, "Did we do the right thing...?"
Barret says something to the same extent, but then later says that "It's for the planet..." and something about there are some sacrifices that might be taken for the good of the planet....
>>
I'll replay the game and find it for you--so give me a few moments....



You're skating around my point. The point is that things like that should either be entirely optional or not require victory to progress. As it stands, things like the motorcycle, submarine, and snowboarding games disrupt the flow of the game and serve no justifiable purpose.

I gave you the purpose! They're a nice variation to gameplay...
Even though they aren't completely refined, I still found them fun....
But I think it is a good idea that they be made optional...
That would make speed runs a lot easier, too...>>


I'm not exactly sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. I'm pointing out that the game's scripting is laughable and you're not exactly disproving that.

>> I was saying that Cloud thinking that they had to go after Sephiroth didn't "come out of nowhere"--that there is a reason that is explained in the story (the overarching theme of the JENOVA reunion...and a lot of similarities to cabbalism and the ten Sefirot).



Again, you're kind of skating around the main point. The primary point is that there was absolutely no way that people were going to find some of the stuff in the game without a guide. The game was obviously intended to be that way since the guide was aggressively marketed with it.

Mm, I understood the point....
And maybe it was used to sell the guide...(which wasn't a very good guide >>)
But there are ways in which vagueness in direction, which allows for exploration and freedom, are good in a game, too! That's what I was saying.
Every bad thing can be seen positively, and vice versa, too....



It seems to me like the two of us agree on a lot of this. Frankly, if you agree with as much as it seems, I don't see how you can continue arguing that the game is a "masterpiece." In almost every respect, it is decidedly mediocre. As I've said before, I honestly have no trouble with people liking the game. I just don't like the way fans loudly proclaim it to be the best fucking game ever when it clearly isn't even close.

Mm, I see....
Well, I definitely do agree there are flaws....
Maybe I'm actually not arguing that the game is a masterpiece....
I think I'm just arguing for the game's good points, and that the game is enjoyable....

When I found out Cloud was lying, my outlook on him changed...>>
Maybe it didn't for you, though...I suppose the effect of different storyline twists vary for different people....

It was heavily implied from early in the game that something wasn't right about Cloud's history. At that point, it was just saying, "Here's the answer to the question we've been dangling over your heads for a while." Perhaps you simply didn't pick up on it because you were younger when you played it. I've noticed that the game is much more popular among kids anyway. That's probably part of the reason.


Alright! I'll show you how, since lots of people ask this question...
In the "Materia" menu, to the left of the Armor slots is a choice that lets you Arrange the materia. When you click on that, under "Arrange" is "Exchange". That's the option that lets you switch between in and out-party members. =]

I'm well aware of that option, thanks very kindly, but it did not let me switch between any but my three active party members. If something I wanted was on another character, I had to go and switch them in to be able to de-equip them.


The time when Barret talks about his remorse is in non-mandatory dialogue, and Jessie talks about it, too (during the 'meeting' the first time in the 7th heaven). Jessie is looking at a computer and talking about the explosion of the reactor, and asks, "Did we do the right thing...?"
Barret says something to the same extent, but then later says that "It's for the planet..." and something about there are some sacrifices that might be taken for the good of the planet....
>>
I'll replay the game and find it for you--so give me a few moments....

That's not really necessary. If it is exactly as you say (I don't remember it clearly enough to say for sure), then that's another example of bad scripting. If Barrett felt guilty about his actions, then something should have come of it. Otherwise, it was purposeless. And ultimately, none of his behaviors changed at all, so it really was pointless.


>> I was saying that Cloud thinking that they had to go after Sephiroth didn't "come out of nowhere"--that there is a reason that is explained in the story (the overarching theme of the JENOVA reunion...and a lot of similarities to cabbalism and the ten Sefirot).

I actually went to the trouble of digging up a script of the scene in question.

Cloud: Sephiroth is alive. ...I have to settle the score.
Barret: Will that save the Planet?
Cloud: ...It seems so.
Barret: Then, I'm going!

Do you see what I'm talking about now? They didn't know that Sephiroth was planning some kind of harm to the planet, so Cloud saying that was simply a poorly written excuse for Barret to stay in the group.


Mm, I understood the point....
And maybe it was used to sell the guide...(which wasn't a very good guide >>)
But there are ways in which vagueness in direction, which allows for exploration and freedom, are good in a game, too! That's what I was saying.
Every bad thing can be seen positively, and vice versa, too....

Leaving room for exploration is fine, but hiding things so that people will not be able to find them without buying a guide is just crappy.


Mm, I see....
Well, I definitely do agree there are flaws....
Maybe I'm actually not arguing that the game is a masterpiece....
I think I'm just arguing for the game's good points, and that the game is enjoyable....

Hey, I'm not denying that the game did have a few redeeming features. I'm also not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. Hell, I enjoyed it for most of the time I spent playing it. I'm just saying it's not nearly the masterpiece that its fans make it out to be, and it's certainly not the best game in the series, much less the best game ever.

I'm well aware of that option, thanks very kindly, but it did not let me switch between any but my three active party members. If something I wanted was on another character, I had to go and switch them in to be able to de-equip them.
?!
Let me check again....
Here, I have screenshots!

This is where the option is...

This is what the screen looks like...

>> Is this what you saw, too...?


If Barrett felt guilty about his actions, then something should have come of it. Otherwise, it was purposeless.
I say things all the time and things don't always come of it...!
It at least shows Barret isn't completely heartless or isn't mindlessly going about his "Saving the Planet" routine....


Cloud: Sephiroth is alive. ...I have to settle the score.
Barret: Will that save the Planet?
Cloud: ...It seems so.
Barret: Then, I'm going!

Do you see what I'm talking about now? They didn't know that Sephiroth was planning some kind of harm to the planet, so Cloud saying that was simply a poorly written excuse for Barret to stay in the group.

Mm...I think Cloud only said that it would save the planet because he had whatever feeling he was having from the Jenova cells, but that does seem kind of tacked on.....
I wouldn't want Barret to leave, though...>>
And I think Barret wanted an excuse to come too...<<
And I mean that in a humorous way! Not in a factual way....
So I agree--I see that it seems that way. This was said in Kalm, right?


Hey, I'm not denying that the game did have a few redeeming features. I'm also not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. Hell, I enjoyed it for most of the time I spent playing it. I'm just saying it's not nearly the masterpiece that its fans make it out to be, and it's certainly not the best game in the series, much less the best game ever.
Oh, I see....
XP I think then I'm not the right person to be arguing with--
But when many people say that it's the "best game", they usually don't mean it as a quantitative, factual statement that it is the best game by all of its mechanics...
I think they mean that it's the "best game"...in their experience--they had the most fun with it, or it's their favorite of the FFs, so it'd be the "best" to them....
Some people become defensive when their favorite thing or something they've enjoyed a lot is beaten upon and torn apart....

Like a mother--
Every person, and every mother has flaws, but if someone says "My mom's the best mother in the world!" and you start arguing with them over it, since it's logically not possible that she is the "Best" (there are always things that other people are better at, and worse at...), I think they would be defensive.
>> I think it's understandable that they're defensive, too....

?!
Let me check again....
Here, I have screenshots!

This is where the option is...

This is what the screen looks like...

>> Is this what you saw, too...?

This screen was not present in my version of the game. The exchange option only brought up the option to switch between the active members. Is it possible that you either have some kind of international version or, at the very least, a later printing?


I say things all the time and things don't always come of it...!
It at least shows Barret isn't completely heartless or isn't mindlessly going about his "Saving the Planet" routine....

But you're not a character in a fictional story. There's a certain way a story is supposed to flow, and things like that break the flow.


Mm...I think Cloud only said that it would save the planet because he had whatever feeling he was having from the Jenova cells, but that does seem kind of tacked on.....
I wouldn't want Barret to leave, though...>>
And I think Barret wanted an excuse to come too...<<
And I mean that in a humorous way! Not in a factual way....
So I agree--I see that it seems that way. This was said in Kalm, right?

No, long before Kalm. That was when the party is first leaving Midgar.


Oh, I see....
XP I think then I'm not the right person to be arguing with--
But when many people say that it's the "best game", they usually don't mean it as a quantitative, factual statement that it is the best game by all of its mechanics...
I think they mean that it's the "best game"...in their experience--they had the most fun with it, or it's their favorite of the FFs, so it'd be the "best" to them....
Some people become defensive when their favorite thing or something they've enjoyed a lot is beaten upon and torn apart....

Like a mother--
Every person, and every mother has flaws, but if someone says "My mom's the best mother in the world!" and you start arguing with them over it, since it's logically not possible that she is the "Best" (there are always things that other people are better at, and worse at...), I think they would be defensive.
>> I think it's understandable that they're defensive, too....

I'm afraid that really isn't my problem. In the end, they can either see the sense I present or they can defy it and look like an idiot. It really makes no difference to me.

Prak, I find it interesting that your version of the game didn't have the "exchange" option.

I remember about 9 years ago, when my brother was playing FFVII and his friend was watching him, he used the "Exchange" function during the party split in Shinra HQ. His friend suddenly said, "WHOA, I didn't know you could do that. I always just used the PHS and it took forever."

Perhaps he never noticed it, or maybe he didn't have a version with it either. I've played two versions, one of which is the PC version, and both allowed for the exchange.

To respond to the actual topic, the category of music had by far the most bullshit ratings. The fact that FFVIII won almost made me vomit; sure, I liked the music, but just because there was someone singing a pop song doesn't mean it had the greatest music of all Final Fantasy. Even worse, though, was that it put FFVI and FFIX, which probably had the best music, at the bottom. FFVI clearly takes the title at first IMO.

Look, guys. This thread talks about a site that holds all FF. So, let's not start a FF7 bad/good game debate....again.

This was posted in the FFVII section. Obviously, whoever made the thread intended that the focus should be put on the fact that the site names FFVII as the worst FF.

Although I tend to agree that there are far too many debates of this nature in this section anyway.

This was posted in the FFVII section. Obviously, whoever made the thread intended that the focus should be put on the fact that the site names FFVII as the worst FF.

Although I tend to agree that there are far too many debates of this nature in this section anyway.

I think that the proper position for this thread is the General Final Fantasy...

This screen was not present in my version of the game. The exchange option only brought up the option to switch between the active members. Is it possible that you either have some kind of international version or, at the very least, a later printing?

Mine is the non-greatest hits version...the first release....XP
I think it might be a glitch, or something, or maybe something wrong with your particular CD...Oo
There are actually quite a few print-specific glitches, which occur repeatedly, but only for certain people....
Some of them are like, FMV sequence switches and things (such as when descending to the final 3 bosses, instead of seeing a bunch of green-blue flying upward, they see the Gold Saucer introduction sequence...Oo)
I've never heard of something like this before, though, and this is kind of interesting.....



No, long before Kalm. That was when the party is first leaving Midgar.

Oo Wow....
Alright...! I'll look into this.....I think you're generally right about this.....



I'm afraid that really isn't my problem. In the end, they can either see the sense I present or they can defy it and look like an idiot. It really makes no difference to me.

The only reason they defy it is because it feels a bit traitorous to the thing they love if they did agree with you....
Using the example I gave....
If someone said, "My mom's the best mother in the world!" and you started having a logical debate with them over this....>> Do you really expect something to come out of it...?
I don't think that statement was meant to be based on logic in the first place, so using logic might be an unfitting way to view it...
It's the same way some people love FF7--it's not entirely based on logic...it's a sort of affection that's born when they played the game....It's not exactly explainable, and is sometimes frustrating to try to put it in logical pretenses. It doesn't fit...and they often can't return a logical argument with logic of their own, simply because they have a reason outside of "logic"....It's not a reason "higher" or anything...it's just a different type of reason.....


Look, guys. This thread talks about a site that holds all FF. So, let's not start a FF7 bad/good game debate....again.

Don't worry! I think...it's mostly settled down....
=]
This is actually the first time I've done something like this....
Mm, so anyway--I think we'll be done with this soon....Unless Prak has other things he wants to say...;)

some were right but most were wrong especially Worst Yoshitaka Amano Art because his art is the best

But the most important thing in a debate is the objective of convincing others that your point of view is the correct one. In order to do that, you have to sound entirely certain that what you're saying is the unblemished truth. Therefore, you should only deal in things you believe to be the absolute truth and speak them as such. If you think something is subject to individual interpretation, you either have to omit it or twist it to your advantage somehow.

Any debate that is taken with that viewpoint is utterly fruitles, apart from feeding ones own ego by convincing somebody else you were right and you can say 'i told you so'.

People should debate with honesty and should want to arrive at the 'truth', wether that be there original opinion or not, as only that way have you gained something valuable at the end.

mho

No, you are confusing the difference between discussion and debate. A debate is essentially a competition, pitting the reason and presentation skills of one person against those of another.

In addition, the purpose of debate is not to convince the person you're debating against that your point of view is the correct one. Rather, the people reading or listening to the debate are the ones you're trying to convince.

No, you are confusing the difference between discussion and debate. A debate is essentially a competition, pitting the reason and presentation skills of one person against those of another.

In addition, the purpose of debate is not to convince the person you're debating against that your point of view is the correct one. Rather, the people reading or listening to the debate are the ones you're trying to convince.

Prak you're right that the fundemental rule of debating is essentially to convince people that your opinion is correct. However being a master debater in itself doesn't make your opinion correct, it could merely mean that you spend more time worrying about Final Fantasy games than the rest of us. And also I'd like to add that in spite of your numerous attempts to convince people otherwise, I don't think there are many people here who agree with you on everything.

Also I disagreed with most of those 'awards' paticularly the nomination of Sephiroth as best villain, and Auron as best male. I have to admit, I found Auron to be a terribly stereotypical character for much of FFX, although towards the end we finally learn a bit more about his past and background. But it simply wasn't enough to finish runner-up in a catergory that had such characters as FFIX's Vivi and Steiner, FFX's Wakka, and even FFVIII's Squall. All of those would easily finish above Auron in my list. Sephiroth meanwhile, well I have no words for him. Possibly the only weaker villain in the series was FFX-2's Shuyin/Vegnagun, and that only because we get to know almost nothing about the character and in general the whole plot for FFX-2 was a half-arsed effort. And shame on them for including blitzball in the 'worst mini-game' section. It did give some opinions that I agreed with though, and wasn't a bad article overall.

Prak you're right that the fundemental rule of debating is essentially to convince people that your opinion is correct. However being a master debater in itself doesn't make your opinion correct, it could merely mean that you spend more time worrying about Final Fantasy games than the rest of us. And also I'd like to add that in spite of your numerous attempts to convince people otherwise, I don't think there are many people here who agree with you on everything.

You'd probably be surprised how little I actually know on some of the subjects I've successfully debated about. Even with only a vague idea of the impression I want to get across, I can fill it in with some hasty research to create a strong argument.

You'd also be surprised how many people here agree with me about most things. The only people who disagree with me on most issues are the ones who are either unwilling to look at a new point of view or those who refuse to see my points based on nothing more than spite. Either way, such people are beneath me and cannot be held as examples due to their lack of reason.


Also I disagreed with most of those 'awards' paticularly the nomination of Sephiroth as best villain, and Auron as best male. I have to admit, I found Auron to be a terribly stereotypical character for much of FFX, although towards the end we finally learn a bit more about his past and background. But it simply wasn't enough to finish runner-up in a catergory that had such characters as FFIX's Vivi and Steiner, FFX's Wakka, and even FFVIII's Squall. All of those would easily finish above Auron in my list. Sephiroth meanwhile, well I have no words for him. Possibly the only weaker villain in the series was FFX-2's Shuyin/Vegnagun, and that only because we get to know almost nothing about the character and in general the whole plot for FFX-2 was a half-arsed effort. And shame on them for including blitzball in the 'worst mini-game' section. It did give some opinions that I agreed with though, and wasn't a bad article overall.

The only thing I disagree with you about in that is your comment about the plot of X-2 being "half-arsed." The game's story was simply driven by character development in contrast to FFX's story, which was driven by its scenario. It tells an entirely different type of story, and does a very good job of it.

You'd probably be surprised how little I actually know on some of the subjects I've successfully debated about. Even with only a vague idea of the impression I want to get across, I can fill it in with some hasty research to create a strong argument.

You'd also be surprised how many people here agree with me about most things. The only people who disagree with me on most issues are the ones who are either unwilling to look at a new point of view or those who refuse to see my points based on nothing more than spite. Either way, such people are beneath me and cannot be held as examples due to their lack of reason.



The only thing I disagree with you about in that is your comment about the plot of X-2 being "half-arsed." The game's story was simply driven by character development in contrast to FFX's story, which was driven by its scenario. It tells an entirely different type of story, and does a very good job of it.

I bet you were bullied at school!

The only thing I disagree with you about in that is your comment about the plot of X-2 being "half-arsed." The game's story was simply driven by character development in contrast to FFX's story, which was driven by its scenario. It tells an entirely different type of story, and does a very good job of it.

In that case, surely you can understand why so many people consider it to be one of, if not the worst in the series. If it was based on character development (which to be perfectly honest, I don't think there is that much of in FFX-2, or certainly not as much as you believe, but we'll get to that in a moment) then it neglects the plot and scenario which is the backbone of an RPG (in many people's opinions, including my own). Personally, while I actively enjoyed the concept of non-linearism brought to FFX-2, I wish they had spent more time on the main part of the game. Really, the first two chapters had little to do with the main story, and led awkwardly into the third which then hit you with the problems in the temples, and before you know it, you're off to fight Shuyin. And fighting Shuyin is about as easy as taking candy from a baby, which left me with a rather unsatisfied reflection on the game. Even the non-linear parts were pretty undernourished, albeit enjoyable. An example of this was the blitzball minigame, which was actually worse than in the original. The whole game seemed to me to have been rushed to fit a deadline. Had they spent more time on it it could have been as good as the original. The one element of the actual gameplay I have praise for is the battle system.

Right I said I would get to the characters, so here I go. The artile posted in this thread described Yuna in FFX-2 as one of the worst female characters ever in the series, and pointed at the fact that Square had simply made her the opposite of what she was in FFX. I agree to a point with that. And what's more Yuna had elements of personality from FFX which seemed out of place in this 'new' Yuna character.

Rikku seemed not to have changed at all since FFX. The main positive about her in X-2 was that we got to learn more about her past (though her relationship with Gippal isn't fully explained is it? Or maybe I haven't yet unlocked a scene which does) In any case, her attitude and outlook on life remains as carefree as ever, if not more. You would think that she'd have matured a bit more in two years. Paine and Wakka were good characters though, paticularly Paine, who despite being unbearable at the start of the game, really offers a lot in the last two chapters, and her back story is undoubtedly the best. As for Lulu and Kimahri, they were slightly disappointing as they weren't given enough attention, in my opinion. Kimahri's role as Elder of the Ronso could have been given more of an importance in the plot, but it wasn't. This would also have helped extend the actual mandatory game playing time, which as I've already said wasn't sufficient. One of the game's main failings.

I bet you were bullied at school!

As a matter of fact, I was for a while. By the end, I was top dog on campus, however, so your implication falls flat and you continue to look like a moron, as usual.


In that case, surely you can understand why so many people consider it to be one of, if not the worst in the series. If it was based on character development (which to be perfectly honest, I don't think there is that much of in FFX-2, or certainly not as much as you believe, but we'll get to that in a moment) then it neglects the plot and scenario which is the backbone of an RPG (in many people's opinions, including my own).

That is your own personal prejudice and simply means that you cannot enjoy a story that does not fit into a cookie-cutter outline. Storytelling takes many forms, and the one in X-2 is perfectly acceptable.


Personally, while I actively enjoyed the concept of non-linearism brought to FFX-2, I wish they had spent more time on the main part of the game. Really, the first two chapters had little to do with the main story, and led awkwardly into the third which then hit you with the problems in the temples, and before you know it, you're off to fight Shuyin. And fighting Shuyin is about as easy as taking candy from a baby, which left me with a rather unsatisfied reflection on the game.

Again, your complaints lack merit and show that you didn't even know how to look at the story the game told, and therefore failed entirely to see its merits; a problem for which the blame lies with you, not the game itself. The first two chapters were the very essence of the story, devoted almost solely to the continued development of the characters and exploration of the game's central theme: change. The Shuyin/Vegnagun story was simply a piece of a larger story, but was not its centerpiece.


Even the non-linear parts were pretty undernourished, albeit enjoyable. An example of this was the blitzball minigame, which was actually worse than in the original.

I've argued against this numerous times. Personally, I did not enjoy X-2's blitzball, but I can see that it is a vastly superior minigame to FFX blitzball. The amount of depth in the new structure of the minigame far exceeds that of the original, where the game became absurdly easy after playing just a few matches and putting a few levels on your team.


The whole game seemed to me to have been rushed to fit a deadline. Had they spent more time on it it could have been as good as the original.

Based on technical merit and ignoring all personal preferences, it is obvious that the two games are at least equal in terms of quality. The problem so many of you have with it is just that it was different. It wasn't what you were used to and you didn't know how to handle it. You wanted one thing, but it gave you another, and there was no way you were going to be happy with anything but what you were used to.


Right I said I would get to the characters, so here I go. The artile posted in this thread described Yuna in FFX-2 as one of the worst female characters ever in the series, and pointed at the fact that Square had simply made her the opposite of what she was in FFX. I agree to a point with that. And what's more Yuna had elements of personality from FFX which seemed out of place in this 'new' Yuna character.

Your description of the character shows that you had absolutely no understanding of it. Yuna was extremely cleverly written. In short, Yuna was exactly the same character as in FFX. The difference was that she was making a conscious effort to change and become her ideal self. You can still see times where the core personality shines through and where she struggles with her old sensibilities and her desire to cast them aside in favor of new ones.


Rikku seemed not to have changed at all since FFX. The main positive about her in X-2 was that we got to learn more about her past (though her relationship with Gippal isn't fully explained is it? Or maybe I haven't yet unlocked a scene which does) In any case, her attitude and outlook on life remains as carefree as ever, if not more. You would think that she'd have matured a bit more in two years.

I certainly agree that Rikku failed to develop. However, I do not see a way that particular character could have developed further, considering that she's the type who already wears her feelings on her sleeves, says exactly what's on her mind, and does whatever she wants. Any major changes in that character would have been completely forced and would not have worked.


Paine and Wakka were good characters though, paticularly Paine, who despite being unbearable at the start of the game, really offers a lot in the last two chapters, and her back story is undoubtedly the best. As for Lulu and Kimahri, they were slightly disappointing as they weren't given enough attention, in my opinion. Kimahri's role as Elder of the Ronso could have been given more of an importance in the plot, but it wasn't. This would also have helped extend the actual mandatory game playing time, which as I've already said wasn't sufficient. One of the game's main failings.

What you regard as a failing is nothing more than an unconventional design method that is often present in other types of games, most notably true RPGs (since FF games are much closer to adventure games and contain no significant role-playing elements). The game rewards you for putting more into it and taking time to explore, interact with other characters, and see all that there is to see instead of rushing through the main story path.

Basically, my point is that you looked at it as just another FF game instead of another game in its own right that has its own distinct style. When you look at it on its own merits without noting its difference to other games in the series, it is undoubtedly one of the best the genre has to offer.

I accept some of the points you've made Prak. Your comments on Yuna and Rikku, to be specific.

However I maintain that the game's non-optional plot was too short, and that some of the optional tasks were among the most mundane and unrewarding Square could have thought of. Taking the example of the Moonflow missions in chapters 1 and 2. In chapter 1, you guard a wagon from four extremely weak sets of bandits. The wagon moved at a frustratingly slow pace, forcing you to stop every now and then and wait for the wagon to catch up. The reward is the Gun Mage dressphere, which seems a decent reward until you realise how poor that paticular dressphere is. Then on to chapter 2 where you sell tickets for Tobli's upcoming show. Selling the tickets for a profit that would actually make the mission worthwhile is very difficult, while the mission itself is even worse. Without doubt, the most dull mission in the game.

Other frustrating tasks include the monkey pairing task in the Zanarkand Ruins, the Cactuar Nation task on Chapter 5 and the 'Real Commotion' task in Luca on Chapter 1. Sadly, in order to see the perfect ending, you must complete these tasks.

Also, your comments about the blitzball minigame haven't convinced me. I accept that FFX's blitz was too easy, however, this is far better than having two teams who are nigh-on unbeatable at the start of the game as in X-2 (Goers and Psyches). 7-0 thrashings were the norm for my Gull Wings initially against all teams except the Beasts, and it took many hours of irritating and unenjoyable 'training' to turn them into a half competitive outfit, combined with many frustrating injuries in training which intterupted your progress. And seeing as other teams don't level up along with you, the game loses all challenge when you are finally able to beat all other teams, so in that way I don't see how it's superior to FFX's blitz. Ideally, all the blitz teams would have been of roughly equal standard, albeit with different traits, styles, formations and tactics, and would have improved along with your team, thus putting an emphasis on you to beat the other teams through tactics, formations and use of the adrenaline gauge. Games were usually too easy or too hard.

Not to mention, the fact that you cannot control players' actions on X-2's blitz is, well, something of a disappointment. While it makes for a relatively free-flowing game not interrupted by constant menu selections as in X's version, when your star striker passes back to your defender with your team 2-1 down and ten seconds left to play, with only the goalie to beat, it tends to leave you open-mouthed with amazement at the AI's 'decision'. The lack of techniques is also a flaw, as these were some of the best bits of FFX's game.

On FFX's version with low level players and the original Aurochs (plus Wakka) the game was a challenge against nearly all teams, mostly thanks to Keepa's ineptitude at low levels. You could control players and utilise tactics much more to your style than in X-2. Some of the special shots were excellent to watch, and blitz actually had a role to play in the story.

However I maintain that the game's non-optional plot was too short, and that some of the optional tasks were among the most mundane and unrewarding Square could have thought of. Taking the example of the Moonflow missions in chapters 1 and 2. In chapter 1, you guard a wagon from four extremely weak sets of bandits. The wagon moved at a frustratingly slow pace, forcing you to stop every now and then and wait for the wagon to catch up. The reward is the Gun Mage dressphere, which seems a decent reward until you realise how poor that paticular dressphere is. Then on to chapter 2 where you sell tickets for Tobli's upcoming show. Selling the tickets for a profit that would actually make the mission worthwhile is very difficult, while the mission itself is even worse. Without doubt, the most dull mission in the game.

To be honest, I can't really argue with you about optional quests. Some of the missions were rather dull, but at least they went by pretty quickly. However, some of the others, such as the Mii'hen mystery (multiple outcomes ftw) and the Den of Woe, were compelling enough to make up for some of them being lackluster.

The argument over the main quest's length, I'm afraid, comes entirely down to personal preference since neither of us will give an inch on it. However, my points still stands that the game is designed to reward players who explore the game more fully. The main path can actually be extended because there are several optional events that tie directly into the main path, such as the aforementioned Den of Woe.


Other frustrating tasks include the monkey pairing task in the Zanarkand Ruins, the Cactuar Nation task on Chapter 5 and the 'Real Commotion' task in Luca on Chapter 1. Sadly, in order to see the perfect ending, you must complete these tasks.

The monkey pairing game was more of a puzzle game than the others you named, which automatically gives it greater merit than the previous examples simply because it requires you to do something a little out of the ordinary to complete it. If you didn't like it, I'm afraid that's simply your problem. The mission itself is hard to fault on any level other than personal impressions.


Also, your comments about the blitzball minigame haven't convinced me. I accept that FFX's blitz was too easy, however, this is far better than having two teams who are nigh-on unbeatable at the start of the game as in X-2 (Goers and Psyches). 7-0 thrashings were the norm for my Gull Wings initially against all teams except the Beasts, and it took many hours of irritating and unenjoyable 'training' to turn them into a half competitive outfit, combined with many frustrating injuries in training which intterupted your progress. And seeing as other teams don't level up along with you, the game loses all challenge when you are finally able to beat all other teams, so in that way I don't see how it's superior to FFX's blitz. Ideally, all the blitz teams would have been of roughly equal standard, albeit with different traits, styles, formations and tactics, and would have improved along with your team, thus putting an emphasis on you to beat the other teams through tactics, formations and use of the adrenaline gauge. Games were usually too easy or too hard.

Not to mention, the fact that you cannot control players' actions on X-2's blitz is, well, something of a disappointment. While it makes for a relatively free-flowing game not interrupted by constant menu selections as in X's version, when your star striker passes back to your defender with your team 2-1 down and ten seconds left to play, with only the goalie to beat, it tends to leave you open-mouthed with amazement at the AI's 'decision'. The lack of techniques is also a flaw, as these were some of the best bits of FFX's game.

For one thing, I never actually said that Blitzball in either game was particularly good. I simply said that there was more merit to X-2's version of it due to its extra depth and the fact that it doesn't become almost impossible to lose after a couple matches. Both versions of it, however, were lacking and could have used a great deal more polishing and balancing.

I'm enjoying the completely off-topic discussion here.

I've never seen anyone present an argument as well as Prak before, and once you get him talking about X-II, he actually has extensive knowledge of the game to back it up. But this is one of those few times where his opponent presents himself respectably. One of the better debates I've seen. Jolly good show.

To create some discussion of my own here, does anybody else think the music ratings were pure bullshit? FFVI belonged at the top by a large margin, and I would like to point out the crappy midi quality in FFVIII, which won 1st.

Like most of the ratings, the music section was total BS. And who would have thought that X-2 deserved a sequel?

No, you are confusing the difference between discussion and debate. A debate is essentially a competition, pitting the reason and presentation skills of one person against those of another.

In addition, the purpose of debate is not to convince the person you're debating against that your point of view is the correct one. Rather, the people reading or listening to the debate are the ones you're trying to convince.


LOL are trying to discuss or debate this? =)