Hello everyone! It's been awhile since I posted here last, but I recently returned to grab a few more soundtracks and browse the forums.

I have a question for you all, mostly pertaining to Final Fantasy VII, (but others tend to fit into this as well.) My question involves pantheism (http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3APantheism). The FF VII story-line relies heavily upon this belief.

My questions to all of you, is do you believe this? Or do you see this as just a plot-line to a game? If you do buy into this belief, does the game hold more meaning to you? If you don't believe in this, do you shy away from parts of the game? How much does this affect your real life? In what ways does this influence your gaming?

I don't want to start up a religious crusade here, nor a holy jehad, but I would like to get a feeling for how people look at these types of things, or if they give it any thought at all. I'll save my thoughts for a later post, but let me hear what you have to say.

I always thought the concept was pretty interesting when it came to Judaism and stuff.

not really getting how it ties in with final fantasy though !

srsly. how is palmer part of god?

hmm Final Fantasy Philosophy always reminded me of A Course In Miracles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_in_miracles)

And what the hell is the difference between Holism & Pantheism anyway? :(

And what the hell is the difference between Holism & Pantheism anyway?

I don't know enough about Holism to fully answer this question. From what I do know, it seems to be similar in many ways, but I have not given it much study.


not really getting how it ties in with final fantasy though !

In FF VII, the World is going to be destroyed. The Earth's "Life Force" is being drained from it because people are greedy for energy. (Forgive my over simplification of the plot line...) The whole concept that the Earth is alive and that all people are part of the Earth, when your spirit dies it goes back into the Earth and creates new life... (very Lion King... *sings* "The circle of Life!!!") is vital to the Storyline.

The game almost becomes a evangalism tool, teaching the doctrine of pantheism to children. Now not everyone is going to catch on to this, most people may just take it for a story line that works for Final Fantasy, but I think that some people, especially those who are younger, probably take some of this to heart. Depending on what they are taught elsewhere and how much they are listening for, I think that people might be picking up on this, in which case FF would then be responsible for the conditioning of minds for a particular religion.

Am I off the deep end? Have I overstepped some boundries?

Comment.

Am I off the deep end? Have I overstepped some boundries?

Since my very first post on FFS, I've claimed that FFVII took a subtile shot at Western culture and/or religion.

Since my very first post on FFS, I've claimed that FFVII took a subtile shot at Western culture and/or religion.

Absolutely. It's fairly obvious to me that Midgar City was meant to represent the Western World, with all of it's greed, technological power and disdain for the environment. The fact that Japan has become so much like this Western Stereotype is underlined by the fact that even in the Japanese version of the game, Shinra, Inc. is still spelled in both English and Japanese.

As for the pantheistic part, I'm assuming you mean that Nature manifests itself in a god-like manner. I do not find much pantheism in FFVII, except for the obvious manifestations of Summon Materia (ie: Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh (to a certain extent,) Kjata, the Bahamut Dragons). The theory of the Lifestream is much more in touch with the basic idea of Buddhism and Reincarnation in it's basic form, in that when one person dies, the molecules and atoms that break up from his dead body become the grass growing above him, eventually transferred as food or air or water throughout the world, until eventually he finds his own atoms making up the body of another person. Of course, conciousness does not follow with the atoms, and this is where FFVII breaks off.

It appears that Aeris, as a Cetra, or Ancient, can manifest herself directly through the lifestream at the end of FFVII (and very obviously in FFVII: Advent Children) because she is of powerful blood. The presence of Zack, however, and the memory-puzzle-piece sequence inside Cloud's Lifestream-inundated head, suggest that one might not need to be Cetra in order to control the remains of their spiritual essence in the Lifestream. Hence, this is very different from the basic idea of Reincarnation in that you do not "come back to life" but remain without a corporeal body, one's "life energy" floating in the Lifestream and contributing to the rest of life on the planet.

The Lifestream idea was obviously cobbled together from several different theories of religion and afterlife, but I find that Pantheism is in a minority here. There is obvious relation to Norse mythology as well (Odin) and ancient Bible scripture (the Holy Machine, in this game and in many FFs named Alexander or Alexandria) but Pantheism is based on the deification of natural elements. One cannot become a pantheistic God, such as Sephiroth seems to want to do, because these natural deities are just that: natural. They have always been and they always will be. Aeris is not a pantheistic God because she has the ability to focus the Lifestream, not control it at a whim.

Just my two cents. Will someone please respond and tell me if I'm completely off my rocker?

I think you make some good points, I don't know if I fully agree with everything you said, but you did raise some interesting questions.

There is a lot of mixing of mythology and religous beliefs within the game, is this what makes it popular? Is the fact that lots of people can relate to something in the game, that it has become so popular? Why is FF VII such a legend?

Sure, it has great music, a good story line, a nice set up of gameplay, but wouldn't it also have to be something you can relate too? Is the fact that you can really get involved in the game part of it's popularity?

Maybe I am stepping over the bounds though. When you all played through it, did you really notice that there was a bit of a religious theme or belief being taught? (Would/Could/Has someone start up a Final Fantasy Religion/Cult?) Or do you just simply view it as another video game that was really good?

I don't know how far in depth I want to go yet, (I almost would like to start up a large scale study of video games,) but some of these questions I have might already be talked about in some other threads... I'll have to look around.

(Would/Could/Has someone start up a Final Fantasy Religion/Cult?) Or do you just simply view it as another video game that was really good?

I can't see why it isn't possible XD. It did happen to Star Wars didn't it? Despite the fact that FF7 has been around for almost a decade, it continues to get more popular, especially after the creation of the movie. Although the previous ones were good, they really didn't include, I guess what you would call a really deep "religious" element in game.

I can't see why it isn't possible XD. It did happen to Star Wars didn't it? Despite the fact that FF7 has been around for almost a decade, it continues to get more popular, especially after the creation of the movie. Although the previous ones were good, they really didn't include, I guess what you would call a really deep "religious" element in game.

Umm...Final Fantasy X? Most of the plot was based around the foundation of religion and how, though it may be powerful and give people great hope, it may have a false, or falsified, basis. FFX I see as a huge allegory for how religion perpetuates bloodshed. I won't go into the explanation of how unless someone asks me to, but that's my opinion.

I don't know enough about Holism to fully answer this question. From what I do know, it seems to be similar in many ways, but I have not given it much study.



In FF VII, the World is going to be destroyed. The Earth's "Life Force" is being drained from it because people are greedy for energy. (Forgive my over simplification of the plot line...) The whole concept that the Earth is alive and that all people are part of the Earth, when your spirit dies it goes back into the Earth and creates new life... (very Lion King... *sings* "The circle of Life!!!") is vital to the Storyline.

The game almost becomes a evangalism tool, teaching the doctrine of pantheism to children. Now not everyone is going to catch on to this, most people may just take it for a story line that works for Final Fantasy, but I think that some people, especially those who are younger, probably take some of this to heart. Depending on what they are taught elsewhere and how much they are listening for, I think that people might be picking up on this, in which case FF would then be responsible for the conditioning of minds for a particular religion.

Am I off the deep end? Have I overstepped some boundries?

Comment.


I think it's an interesting application but I think it's a coincidence, not something that's directly related. final fantasy 7 could be considered to be about reincarnation and samsara / reincarnation, if you wanted to draw analogies there.

in the end I think 7 is ultimately about the planet being intrinsically involved with life, and that ironically life itself is helping to destroy it. then they throw in a bad guy with a sword to make it more interesting for the rest of the people ~

I don't see how the planet is somehow supposed to be the "god" of that world. and that's what pantheism is all about. pan-thei-ism. all-god-ism. believing that all things are (a part of) god.

and I totally don't get how it relates to any of the other final fantasies.

nevertheless, I do think it's an interesting take on it, and (thank god) more interesting than GOD I WISH I COULD HAVE MY OWN MASAMUNE threads.

Actually, I don't think FF7 at all paints a picture of Pantheism. It's probalby less pantheistic than the previous and the later. For one thing, the Cetra, who could control the life stream, were separate entities from it, even while they were in it. The same with Sephiroth, hence he was able to reincarnate into Advent Children's main villain. Also, while it was far more open in the game, in Advent children something outside even that happened. When Kadaj, was slain and his Mako touch Aerith's his Mako didn't return to the planet, but moved into the sky. If the message was one of pantheism, then a great deal of irony is there to be found. Aerith herself is a monotheist, although it seems more philosophical than religious, she never really doubted the existence of a God, even as a spirit sitting in the Mako, she was just happy as a clam to have a purpose in her place. Perhaps then the relevance of whether or not the story was theistic in any way whatsoever is moot, but it we were people who really lived in a world like that one, then I suppose it wouldn't be moot, and it would still be relevant.

I like FFVII's mythos because it is such a hodge-podge. It throws a soul-cycle and a myriad of divinities into a world where people are in battle over the very idea of a common divinity, arguing over what, who, or what form it is, even questioning it's existence, just having these concepts conbat and intermix in a more concrete manner than can possible be effected by flame-war-esque debates. I also find, it intriguing, that the FFVII compilation makes more references to Christianity than any other FF game. Even FFTactics which it's story is based of a parody of the medieval cahtolic church, and FFX which is really based more on the general concept of a fundementalistic theocracy, don't make as many references. There are references to other religions too in FFVII, like I said, it's fun hodge-podge. But in FFVII numerous characters are put through situations where they inact the role of a biblical character in a similar story. Often, especially after her death, Aerith takes a role quite similar to the virgin Mary. All the ancient beings begin to call her mother, as after she dies and Jenova is slain, she replaces Jenova, while Jenova was evil, Aerith is good. While the womb of Jenova literally issued forth death and destruction, the womb of Aerith figuratively issued forth life and renual. This is a paralell to the relationship between Eve and Mary biblically. Cloud is often portrayed in Chistlike effigy although the character of Cloud is far from sainted, his role is one of self sacrifice, and apparently redemption, although self sacrifice is a more general trait of universal heroism. (i.e. not religiously particular) The "cross he bears" puts him in frequent effigy of Christ where he doesn't necessarily have to be a duplication in any regard. I could explain the similarities between Tifa and Mary Magdalene, or compare Barret to Peter, but I digress. I by no means am saying that the writer was trying to put across a Christian message, I'm just saying that he utilized Christian chracters and symbols to communicate parts of the story where he felt those symbols would have the strongest impact. And regardless of the spirituality or the cosmology behind the setting, the part where Cloud was putting the water over the heads of the children with the Geostigma, was emotionally profound... and just the way it was put, there was no need to explain. As a viewer, a non-Chistian could appreciate it, and a Christian had no cause to be offended. It was what it was because of what it was.

I'm not by any means arguing that there was any sort of Christian message in it. (I could theoretically, but I'm not going to bother in this post. Let's just say any Christian like message is more of a Narnia Syndrome than anything else.) I'm just saying that the writer made very good usage of Christian references and was even reverent in the way he utilized them. And the end to which he utilized them was the same end to which he utilized all the rest of the hodge-podge, to tell a good story... a damned good story at that.

In short, C'est la vie!(Okay, not really!)