I just started replaying disk 2 where everyone goes back to the orphanage. And I was thinking how did they all meet up again? I know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Zell by Mrs. Dincth, but nobody else had any form of contact as a guardian, who were Squall, Irvine, Seifer, and Selphies parents/guardians? and Why did the all want to be mercenaries or was that just a custom of everyone in that world? Also Edea's house A.K.A the orphanage has no train so how exactly did they get off that Island. I know that the Centra Ruins use to move so that may have been a mode of transportation, it's not like anyone ha a speedboat.

Also considering Rinoa and Ellone:
We all know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Laguna grew to love her like a daughter stopping at nothing to save her. But before that he loved Julia (Rinoa's mother) and we all know that he went up to her hotel room, but whether or not he spawned Rinoa is a toss-up (let's just say he did) doesn't that theortically make Rinoa and Elllone sisters and squall their brother? Seeing as her saw Ellone like a 'sis'.

Griever
Everyone Knows the powerful griever the thing at the end of squalls gunblade, and Ultimecia's ultimate GF. Which was first did Ultimecia name Griever after Squalls symbol, or did the symbol already reflect off grievers image. And if Griever was named after the symbol that means Ultimecia is somehow related to Squall possibly the sorceresses daughter, or grand daughter, or whatever that linaege may be but there are a bunch of things that influence the story that are left out, I think S-E owes me some answers.

Maybe you are just a little slow?

:p

I just started replaying disk 2 where everyone goes back to the orphanage. And I was thinking how did they all meet up again? I know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Zell by Mrs. Dincth, but nobody else had any form of contact as a guardian, who were Squall, Irvine, Seifer, and Selphies parents/guardians? and Why did the all want to be mercenaries or was that just a custom of everyone in that world? Also Edea's house A.K.A the orphanage has no train so how exactly did they get off that Island. I know that the Centra Ruins use to move so that may have been a mode of transportation, it's not like anyone ha a speedboat.

Well the children were all sent to gardens if you remember. They were still only very young at the time and were looked after there. The fact that they were brought to the gardens would suggest that Cid or whoever brought them there. They do have boats you know.


Also considering Rinoa and Ellone:
We all know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Laguna grew to love her like a daughter stopping at nothing to save her. But before that he loved Julia (Rinoa's mother) and we all know that he went up to her hotel room, but whether or not he spawned Rinoa is a toss-up (let's just say he did) doesn't that theortically make Rinoa and Elllone sisters and squall their brother? Seeing as her saw Ellone like a 'sis'.

Ellone was squalls sister and Rinoa is General Caraways daughter not Lagunas.


Griever
Everyone Knows the powerful griever the thing at the end of squalls gunblade, and Ultimecia's ultimate GF. Which was first did Ultimecia name Griever after Squalls symbol, or did the symbol already reflect off grievers image. And if Griever was named after the symbol that means Ultimecia is somehow related to Squall possibly the sorceresses daughter, or grand daughter, or whatever that linaege may be but there are a bunch of things that influence the story that are left out, I think S-E owes me some answers.

As for Griever I havent a clue and dont really think it matters. Squall had a ring of griever but that doesnt mean he was called after the ring. Griever was just a GF that Ultimecia used who happened to have his own merchandise.

Ellone was squalls sister and Rinoa is General Caraways daughter not Lagunas.They never said that Squall and Ellone were related plus I think General Caraway said he was away when she was born/concieved.
As for Griever I havent a clue and dont really think it matters. Squall had a ring of griever but that doesnt mean he was called after the ring. Griever was just a GF that Ultimecia used who happened to have his own merchandise. Isn't that just too coincidental?

I just started replaying disk 2 where everyone goes back to the orphanage. And I was thinking how did they all meet up again? I know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Zell by Mrs. Dincth, but nobody else had any form of contact as a guardian, who were Squall, Irvine, Seifer, and Selphies parents/guardians? and Why did the all want to be mercenaries or was that just a custom of everyone in that world? Also Edea's house A.K.A the orphanage has no train so how exactly did they get off that Island. I know that the Centra Ruins use to move so that may have been a mode of transportation, it's not like anyone ha a speedboat.
Maybe there was a train there when the orphanage was still there, in one piece and not in rubble. Then after it was demolished, the trains were cut off from there.


Also considering Rinoa and Ellone:
We all know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Laguna grew to love her like a daughter stopping at nothing to save her. But before that he loved Julia (Rinoa's mother) and we all know that he went up to her hotel room, but whether or not he spawned Rinoa is a toss-up (let's just say he did) doesn't that theortically make Rinoa and Elllone sisters and squall their brother? Seeing as her saw Ellone like a 'sis'.
Rinoa is not Laguna's daughter. Rinoa's father is General Caraway. And besides, Laguna and Julia never had sex. They just talked together in the hotel room. If you'll remember the scenario when Laguna is at Winhill with Kiros, Raine said that Julia's true love(Laguna) went away and never came back, then she met General Caraway and they got busy.


Griever
Everyone Knows the powerful griever the thing at the end of squalls gunblade, and Ultimecia's ultimate GF. Which was first did Ultimecia name Griever after Squalls symbol, or did the symbol already reflect off grievers image. And if Griever was named after the symbol that means Ultimecia is somehow related to Squall possibly the sorceresses daughter, or grand daughter, or whatever that linaege may be but there are a bunch of things that influence the story that are left out, I think S-E owes me some answers.
Squall's gunblade is as strong as Ultimecia's strongest GF. I think it's just symbolization. In my opinion.


They never said that Squall and Ellone were related plus I think General Caraway said he was away when she was born/concieved.
No he wasn't away.


Isn't that just too coincidental?
RPG's are like that. They want you to think which is coincidential or not.

Oh, gawd, not another plot-hole thread. Don't already have like five of these, including an official "what makes FF8 stand/fall?" topic, which so many people simply choose to ignore?


P.S. --- 'Sis' Ellone is just a nickname based on the orphanage kids' special closeness to Ellone, nothing more.

:yawn: at boring overdone and useless thread.

Yeah, Ellone was like everyone's big sister in the orphanage (I think at some point in the game, Squall or someone says this). And if Ultimecia and Squall are somehow connected with Griever and with Ultimecia's Power, it's possible that she created Griever because it says it's the strongest GF in Squall's eyes. And if their not connected, then Griever is most likely a GF that wasn't created, like Shiva or Brothers, and is just a very powerful GF that Ultimecia has acquired and different kinds of jewelry was made like Christians are for crusifixes. It's a symbol to show an idea, a god, or in this case a GF.

heres my stance on the Squall/griever thing

alot of FF8's plot revolves around time compression, i read this theory that makes alot of sense. Ultemicia is a sorceress who is obsessed with controlling time.

Many people know and believe the Ultemicia is Rinoa theory, alot of it makes sense. If you notice throughout the game and its storyline, Rinoa talks alot about how she fears being a sorceress, and that everyone will turn on her, she fears she wont be able to control her powers and responsibility. Now alot of what i base my theory on here revolves around this, in the ragnorak, rinoa discusses these fears around the time "Eyes On Me" kicks in. She states shes scared of everyone hating her, in response Squall sais no matter what, he will never turn on Rinoa, and said he would always be her knight. People who believe Rinoa is ultemicia feel she wants to control time to always be with Squall, To bring it back to there most memorible moments. and since Squall doesnt have the abilities and same structure as a sorceress, and since mortals really cant live forever, the theory goes that Squall eventually turns into what is Griever, and is there to protect Ultemicia from whatever may harm her, being her knight.

Its important to remember, that going through time and doing things differently can change its fate and the people who are in it, even the people they become. remmeber that invention Dr.Odine talks about? the one with insane power? picture this, imagine a world, in which a confused girl is born without a mother, and holds powers she doesnt understand, such things can cause anger and confusion, and a not yet mature person can be dangerous with these abilities. This would be Rinoa, and we know she also resented her father. Easy to see her going insane, and becoming an evil sorceress calling herself ultemecia. Also would be understandable for her to get the item Odine nivented and using it to control sorceress's in the past. and who does she control? Adel than Edea. And from controlling Edea, it help start a war between timber and galbadia. Which causes Rinoa now in this time, before the future to hire Seeds to help her fight. And i believe this is what kept her sane, was Squall. Notice how the evil rinoa chose Seifer to be her knight? if she didnt hire the seeds at this point, she still woulda been in love with seifer and not squall. Since Seifer was her boyfriend before Squall was hired as a mercenary. also anyone find it interesting that when ultemicia is defeated, she sends herself and squall to Edeas house where Squall said those magical words to Rinoa? "I'll be waiting here for you...so if you come here you will find me. I Promise"

Many people know and believe the Ultemicia is Rinoa theory, alot of it makes sense.

Except for the minute detail that the theory has been proven multiple times to be total crap, much like reviving Aeris in FFVII. Why must this inane "theory" keep popping up? It's like my acne problems in junior high--it just keeps coming back.

:yawn: at boring overdone and useless thread.

I don't believe that Rinoa and Seifer were ever an item. All he did was show the little kindness he had and introduced Rinoa to Cid. So that part of the theory is nothing. But with Squall being Griever, and Griever is a GF, there still has to be something that shows that he is Squall. Like the theory revolving around Rinoa's attire and Ultemicia's. But there's nothing like that for Griever which I also believe isn't Squall in that sense.

Also considering Rinoa and Ellone:
We all know Ellone was adopted by Raine and Laguna grew to love her like a daughter stopping at nothing to save her. But before that he loved Julia (Rinoa's mother) and we all know that he went up to her hotel room, but whether or not he spawned Rinoa is a toss-up (let's just say he did) doesn't that theortically make Rinoa and Elllone sisters and squall their brother? Seeing as her saw Ellone like a 'sis'.

The scene where Squall is in the hotel room was set way before the Winhill part. Squall not being born at the Winhill part and Rinoa being younger than Squall makes it seem they are in no way related.

heres my stance on the Squall/griever thing

alot of FF8's plot revolves around time compression, i read this theory that makes alot of sense. Ultemicia is a sorceress who is obsessed with controlling time.

Many people know and believe the Ultemicia is Rinoa theory, alot of it makes sense. If you notice throughout the game and its storyline, Rinoa talks alot about how she fears being a sorceress, and that everyone will turn on her, she fears she wont be able to control her powers and responsibility. Now alot of what i base my theory on here revolves around this, in the ragnorak, rinoa discusses these fears around the time "Eyes On Me" kicks in. She states shes scared of everyone hating her, in response Squall sais no matter what, he will never turn on Rinoa, and said he would always be her knight. People who believe Rinoa is ultemicia feel she wants to control time to always be with Squall, To bring it back to there most memorible moments. and since Squall doesnt have the abilities and same structure as a sorceress, and since mortals really cant live forever, the theory goes that Squall eventually turns into what is Griever, and is there to protect Ultemicia from whatever may harm her, being her knight.

Its important to remember, that going through time and doing things differently can change its fate and the people who are in it, even the people they become. remmeber that invention Dr.Odine talks about? the one with insane power? picture this, imagine a world, in which a confused girl is born without a mother, and holds powers she doesnt understand, such things can cause anger and confusion, and a not yet mature person can be dangerous with these abilities. This would be Rinoa, and we know she also resented her father. Easy to see her going insane, and becoming an evil sorceress calling herself ultemecia. Also would be understandable for her to get the item Odine nivented and using it to control sorceress's in the past. and who does she control? Adel than Edea. And from controlling Edea, it help start a war between timber and galbadia. Which causes Rinoa now in this time, before the future to hire Seeds to help her fight. And i believe this is what kept her sane, was Squall. Notice how the evil rinoa chose Seifer to be her knight? if she didnt hire the seeds at this point, she still woulda been in love with seifer and not squall. Since Seifer was her boyfriend before Squall was hired as a mercenary. also anyone find it interesting that when ultemicia is defeated, she sends herself and squall to Edeas house where Squall said those magical words to Rinoa? "I'll be waiting here for you...so if you come here you will find me. I Promise"

1) What you fail to realise is that GFs are not aeons and therefor means Squall can't turn into Griever.
2) The r=u theory is false seeing as Ultimecia even seing Rinoa would alter her, not to mention her killing rinoa killing Ultimecia. If that theory were true R would become U, and R would kill U forever, seeing as a part of rinoas life is becoming and killing U. It is completely illogical therefor making it false.

1) What you fail to realise is that GFs are not aeons and therefor means Squall can't turn into Griever.

They may not be Aeons but Ultemicia still has the power to combine herself with greiver. She doesnt turn in to him but she certainly has the power to merge with him to create a powerful being. Whereas the others can only summon the gfs, Rinoa included. So it makes you wonder if the ability to "merge" or become a gf does not become a possibility until ultemecias time.


2) The r=u theory is false seeing as Ultimecia even seing Rinoa would alter her, not to mention her killing rinoa killing Ultimecia. If that theory were true R would become U, and R would kill U forever, seeing as a part of rinoas life is becoming and killing U. It is completely illogical therefor making it false.

That whole theory of Rinoa = Ultemicia. Is one that will never be answered. Because every single person has views on it. Some believe it, some dont. It just goes on whatever your take is.

That whole theory of Rinoa = Ultemicia. Is one that will never be answered. Because every single person has views on it. Some believe it, some dont. It just goes on whatever your take is.

Except for the fact that I've read at least two thorough debunkings of the theory on this very forum. I've also read that the Ultimania guide puts R=U to rest, as well, though I haven't read the Guide myself. With your brand of dislogic, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the earth is flat.

Heh heh. I once heard someone argue that Squall and Laguna arent related.
Saying "It never says it in the game!"
But it does. Oh and i never picked up on the Rinoa is Ultimecia thing you guys are on about. I shall play it again and find out.

Oh and i never picked up on the Rinoa is Ultimecia thing you guys are on about. I shall play it again and find out.

You needn't put yourself through such a trial--the bare bones of the theory is that because of Ultimecia's attire apparently bearing similarities to Rinoa's (I think it's the whole angel wings/feathers thing) and that she summons Griever (Squall's ring, the one Rinoa had Zell copy for her), Ultimecia is really Rinoa in the future and Squall channels FFX and becomes Griever, abstractly fulfilling his promise to be Rinoa's "knight." Most proponents of this theory take quotes and/or details in the game out of context to "prove" their theory. As I've said, not only did the Ultimania guide debunk this bogus theory (so I've been told, at least), but there have been at least two very thorough debunkings on this very forum. They might have been lost to the hack, but it wouldn't hurt to search.

Fair enough.

Cyan, every time it's come up, I've pointed out that there are holes in the debunkings. Each time, there's been some kind of speculation made that the entire argument is reliant on. Mind you, I'm neutral on the issue and don't really give a damn one way or the other. I just like watching the arguments about it.

Also, I don't take anything the Ultimania guides say seriously. The ones for FFVII and FFVIII were both written well after the games were made, so it's not unthinkable that Square-Enix may have made revisions. It certainly fits with their current business model.

Each time, there's been some kind of speculation made that the entire argument is reliant on.

But the theory itself is based on wilder speculation. The two debunkings I've read were based quite heavily upon that, and the fact that the folks who believe the theory take things out of context.


The ones for FFVII and FFVIII were both written well after the games were made, so it's not unthinkable that Square-Enix may have made revisions. It certainly fits with their current business model.

Ah, I had thought the FFVIII guide was written much sooner, especially in comparison to FFVII's. Should have known, though, with Squeenix.

edit for everybody: The debunking I've been going on about! (Thread 25525)

Prak, at the risk of setting myself up to be completely crushed in a debate, I fail to see where Squall of SeeD failed to disprove R=U.

I'm like Prak, mostly. Personally, I don't really believe Rinoa is Ultimecia, but I don't have any strong feelings about it. And I'm sick to death of hearing about it.

I'm like Prak, mostly. Personally, I don't really believe Rinoa is Ultimecia, but I don't have any strong feelings about it. And I'm sick to death of hearing about it.



To true. I was just bored out of my fucking mind. Thats why I responded to this braindead thread.

1) What you fail to realise is that GFs are not aeons and therefor means Squall can't turn into Griever.
2) The r=u theory is false seeing as Ultimecia even seing Rinoa would alter her, not to mention her killing rinoa killing Ultimecia. If that theory were true R would become U, and R would kill U forever, seeing as a part of rinoas life is becoming and killing U. It is completely illogical therefor making it false.

And what makes you think this? Did you email square and ask them whether Squall can become a GF? Aeons and GFs are quite similar, in fact, so why is this so unbelievable to you? When you really think about it, FF8 and FFX's stories are VERY similar. Think about it.

This theory makes PERFECT sense, especially when you replay the game and watch the opening video. Read the dialogue through that video and the rest of the game. It all makes perfect sense.

Rinoa's soul inside Ultimecia wanted to die. Don't you get it? If she kills Rinoa from the past, her torment ends as long as she remembers to pass her powers off to Edea. As she was dying she was telling the group of her pain, how time always seemed to slip from her grasp no matter how hard she tried to hold on. Rinoa even told Squall that if her powers ever got out of hand, it would be ok if he killed him...but only him (plus dont forget that excessive use of GFs kills memory, and if Griever is as powerful as he's supposed to be, Ultimecia would forget A LOT about her past. Maybe fighting them started to jar her memory back toward the end....Rinoa was surfacing once more). I'm not going to go through all the evidence supporting Rinoa as Ultimecia and Squall as Griever, because seriously, it's all over the internet and its friggin LOADED in the game. SQUARE WANTED US TO REFLECT OVER THIS. Google it or reread what Crail wrote because that's concrete.

And how bout this? Squall and Seifer are fierce competitors right? Even for the same woman right? Square's description of Rinoa is a woman's mind in a child's heart. What is the first thing Ultimecia (speaking through Edea) said to him? She talked about him being torn between being a boy and a man. Being with Ultimecia as HER gf, gaining eternal life....that was HIS GOAL. To be her knight FOREVER. That's why Rinoa wasn't sure how Seifer felt about her - because he was attracted to supreme sorceress budding inside her...the strong fighting side of her (which was always the personality difference between he and Squall. He was always LOOKING for a fight...which is why he chose Ultimecia over Rinoa). He was originally attracted to Rinoa because he ALSO was stuck between boyhood and manhood, but when Ultimecia came into his life, he chose to embrace the "WOMAN" side of Rinoa, which was Ultimecia....Rinoa's thoughts and fears come to life - because Rinoa's mind is her woman side.

What is so difficult to believe about all this? Evidence is ALL OVER THE PLACE in game. Replay it, man. rly.

At least Crail is on top of his game! Nice man.

To true. I was just bored out of my fucking mind. Thats why I responded to this braindead thread.

lol yeah, God forbid we theorize about games we love in a game forum....how pointless....

wait what?

Cyan, I'm sorry for missing your edit before. I'll reply now and show exactly how that "debunking" in inconclusive.


-Witches and Immortality-

The theory works off of the assumption that Witches have immortality as its core concept. Often-cited evidence of this is that Edea's facial features are far younger than should be the case for a woman married to a 40 year old man (as her husband, Cid Kramer, happens to be). Another bit of evidence offered in this regard is that Ultimecia needed to go further into the past to cast Time Compression than the generation the game takes place in. When she finally is sent far enough back, it is into Adel's younger self that she is sent. The assumption here is that Ultimecia must have needed to go much further back in time, and that Adel, consequently, has lived longer than a normal lifespan.

Response: There's no reason to assume this to be the case, for starters. Edea's face certainly looks more developed and mature than those of Ellone, Selphie, Quistis, or Rinoa. She certainly has the appearance of a woman at least in her thirties. For that matter, even if she didn't, there's little reason to assume she wouldn't have married an older man.

As for Adel, considering how little we know of the mechanics of Time Compression, it's hardly a safe forest to venture into when looking for support for this notion. We don't know the limits of Junction Machine Ellone's power to send Ultimecia into the past. It may have been one year shorter than where she needed to be or 100 years too short.

Look at the efforts made in this section. The first part of the response is simply second guessing Edea's age. The second part is nothing more than a "we don't know" argument, which offers nothing conclusive at all.


-Witches and Persecution-

Assuming for a moment that Witches are immortal, let's imagine what would happen when Squall, Rinoa's Knight and her centre of balance, dies. Now also consider the results when her friends have also died. And her father. And Squall's father, Laguna. Now recall the persecution that Witches face simply of who they are (mentioned by Ultimecia in Deling City), and imagine how much greater that fear and persecution will be in the aftermath of Ultimecia's war in the past. Rinoa would be left alone to fend for herself in a world that feared and hated her simply because of who she was. While Squall's father was the President of Esthar, and her own father, Fury Caraway, was likely in line to be the next ruler of Galbadia, there's hardly reason to assume that their successors are going to be quite as sympathetic toward Rinoa -- and Witches in general -- as they themselves would have been toward her.

Response: The problem here is that the matter of Witches being immortal still needs to be substantiated. If that could be proven, then it would certainly follow logically that Rinoa would face such persecution. However, it cannot follow at all if the matter of Witch immortality remains unsubstantiated.

The counter-argument to this part is based on more speculation, and on top of that, it relates directly to the section above where he failed to prove his case.


-Witches and Dying in Peace-

Near the ending of the game, just before Ultimecia's death, Edea makes this very important statement: "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." What, then, does she mean? Does she mean that dying without first giving up one's powers would mean a bad afterlife existance for a Witch? Or does she mean that a Witch must simply be free of her powers to die?

This could, perhaps, be taken to mean "Remaining alive, but not properly, forever caught in the dying moment until the Witch is free of her powers." If this is so, then it may well be that Witches are immortal after all, if they can't even die until they are free of their powers. In fact, the Japanese line that Edea speaks here is simply "A Witch cannot die while still holding on to the Witches' power." It may be that in the case of Witches who do die, they're either giving up their powers so as to be free of the pain of death, or their body is simply forcing them to surrender their powers.

Response: A strong point that may support the theory, but on its own doesn't do so, if only because SeeD fights and defeats 13 Witches during the game, all of whom die either immediately after being dealt a fatal blow or shortly thereafter. If such a concept of remaining as long as was desired were present, it seems more reasonable to assume that the story would have made a point of demonstrating it.

More speculation in the response. Noticing a pattern?


-Witches and Hyne-

Hyne is said to have been the progenitor of the Witch Embodiment powers. The story of Hyne also goes that he created Homo Sapiens, then took a nap while they worked. When he awoke, he found that they had multiplied beyond his capacity to control them. In order for them to have multiplied so, it must be that his nap lasted a few hundred to several thousand years. This must mean that Hyne is immortal. Considering that the Witch Embodiment originates from him, it may well be that the Witches inherited increased longevity, or full immortality.

Response: This segment suffers from the usual problem that most points in the theory do: A lack of support for the notion.

Again, the only thing he can say to disprove this concept is, "It isn't proven."

I can go through the entire thing, but the gist of every last bit of it is basically, "This can't be proven, but this seems more logical to me because it would support my position, so it must be true."

And what makes you think this? Did you email square and ask them whether Squall can become a GF? Aeons and GFs are quite similar, in fact, so why is this so unbelievable to you? When you really think about it, FF8 and FFX's stories are VERY similar. Think about it.
1) They were made in to different worlds with two different historie not to mention, there has never been any evidence of a human turning into a GF.
2) Yeah because Rinoa was on a mission to help out her religion, and turns her back on old religion, and fights to end and eternal cycle. Not to metion the whole squall from a legendary city thing, that was destroyed 1,000 years ago.:rolleyes:

This theory makes PERFECT sense, especially when you replay the game and watch the opening video. Read the dialogue through that video and the rest of the game. It all makes perfect sense.You've lost all hope of a good reputation on FFS, no it doesn't make sense, there may be similarities but no way in hell does it make sense, the whole time compression thing cancels out the whole she killed Ultimecia so she broke the cycle.
Rinoa's soul inside Ultimecia wanted to die. Don't you get it? If she kills Rinoa from the past, her torment ends as long as she remembers to pass her powers off to Edea. As she was dying she was telling the group of her pain, how time always seemed to slip from her grasp no matter how hard she tried to hold on. Rinoa even told Squall that if her powers ever got out of hand, it would be ok if he killed him...but only him (plus dont forget that excessive use of GFs kills memory, and if Griever is as powerful as he's supposed to be, Ultimecia would forget A LOT about her past. Maybe fighting them started to jar her memory back toward the end....Rinoa was surfacing once more). I'm not going to go through all the evidence supporting Rinoa as Ultimecia and Squall as Griever, because seriously, it's all over the internet and its friggin LOADED in the game. SQUARE WANTED US TO REFLECT OVER THIS. Google it or reread what Crail wrote because that's concrete.O rly? because she sure didn't fight like she wanted to die, and if that were true the whole, "only squall could kill me", why did Irvine deal the finishing blow in my account? You're clutching at straws to prove a point that has been thoroughly disembowled. What you fail to realise is that Ultimecia didn't summon them, ellone sent them, to kill ultimecia, meaning she had no intention of killing herself. Also if you rule the future as queen who would you fight with a GF? the whole memory erasal thing only works if she would fight with the GF. And I don't remember Rinoa having a speech impedemant. Oh because I was sure square just wanted us to fill up their bank account my mistake.
And how bout this? Squall and Seifer are fierce competitors right? Even for the same woman right? Square's description of Rinoa is a woman's mind in a child's heart. What is the first thing Ultimecia (speaking through Edea) said to him? She talked about him being torn between being a boy and a man. Being with Ultimecia as HER gf, gaining eternal life....that was HIS GOAL. To be her knight FOREVER. That's why Rinoa wasn't sure how Seifer felt about her - because he was attracted to supreme sorceress budding inside her...the strong fighting side of her (which was always the personality difference between he and Squall. He was always LOOKING for a fight...which is why he chose Ultimecia over Rinoa). He was originally attracted to Rinoa because he ALSO was stuck between boyhood and manhood, but when Ultimecia came into his life, he chose to embrace the "WOMAN" side of Rinoa, which was Ultimecia....Rinoa's thoughts and fears come to life - because Rinoa's mind is her woman side.
The whole "boy between a man" thing was said because Ultimecia controlled edeas body and mind, she was in edeas memory when she said that Squall being as anti-social as he is, would never tell Rinoa this, Edea knew squall as a boy and now sees him as a man. Umm no because when Ultimecia left edea and took adel he oly defended adel because his title was snatched from him, he never knew she was brain washed. Rinoa doesn't get Ultimecia's power until the lunar cry, seifer was way before that, seifer probably thought she was ho0t.
What is so difficult to believe about all this? Evidence is ALL OVER THE PLACE in game. Replay it, man. rly.

At least Crail is on top of his game! Nice man.Because your evidence contradicts itself and i do intend to replay it just for fun not subtle clues

BOB IS A WITCH!

1) They were made in to different worlds with two different historie not to mention, there has never been any evidence of a human turning into a GF.
2) Yeah because Rinoa was on a mission to help out her religion, and turns her back on old religion, and fights to end and eternal cycle. Not to metion the whole squall from a legendary city thing, that was destroyed 1,000 years ago.:rolleyes:
You've lost all hope of a good reputation on FFS, no it doesn't make sense, there may be similarities but no way in hell does it make sense, the whole time compression thing cancels out the whole she killed Ultimecia so she broke the cycle.O rly? because she sure didn't fight like she wanted to die, and if that were true the whole, "only squall could kill me", why did Irvine deal the finishing blow in my account? You're clutching at straws to prove a point that has been thoroughly disembowled. What you fail to realise is that Ultimecia didn't summon them, ellone sent them, to kill ultimecia, meaning she had no intention of killing herself. Also if you rule the future as queen who would you fight with a GF? the whole memory erasal thing only works if she would fight with the GF. And I don't remember Rinoa having a speech impedemant. Oh because I was sure square just wanted us to fill up their bank account my mistake.The whole "boy between a man" thing was said because Ultimecia controlled edeas body and mind, she was in edeas memory when she said that Squall being as anti-social as he is, would never tell Rinoa this, Edea knew squall as a boy and now sees him as a man. Umm no because when Ultimecia left edea and took adel he oly defended adel because his title was snatched from him, he never knew she was brain washed. Rinoa doesn't get Ultimecia's power until the lunar cry, seifer was way before that, seifer probably thought she was ho0t. Because your evidence contradicts itself and i do intend to replay it just for fun not subtle clues



Number one, fuck you. I'm posting my thoughts, and I never said I wanted a "good reputation." I just wanted to say my feelings on this subject so that my voice could be heard. That's the point of a forum, dumbass. Go take ur white collar snobby remarks somewhere else. This is a FORUM.

And it's funny that you say my evidence contradicts itself because your "proof against my theories" seems to be "nuh uh" in more words. You're making up most of this crap out of ur ass instead of noticing patterns in very similar stories...and FF8 and FFX are VERY SIMILAR STORIES. It doesn't matter what fucking world it takes place in. You're assuming it's wrong even though in reality you have no damn clue. I said only that Square wanted us to reflect on this subject, not that it was true...and I'm sorry sir, maybe you don't pay enough attention to story detail, because evidence is all over the place if you look for it. If you really want to proove me wrong, then really try to look for it in your next play through, and if you still can't see it, THEN you can be a dick. At least I'm pulling my theories from the Final Fantasy series instead of saying, "nuh uh" in more words and a mediocre understanding of the story.

For God's sake, you said that Rinoa was Laguna's son, and you're telling ME I have no clue?! Please talk some more so u can sound dumber.

Ultimecia's name when directly translated is Artemesia, who was from greek mythology. When her lover (who was actually her brother, and even though Rinoa and Squall weren't brother and sister, they were ALMOST brother and sister. Square wouldn't do the incest thing with their characters in a million years) died, she went insane and dedicated the rest of her life to building a glorious and indestructable shrine for her deceased.

what about the flashing of Ultimesia's face over Rinoa's at the end? I suppose that was coincidence too, huh? or will you make up more "nuh uh" bullshit to dodge that too?

What about the song called "Maybe I'm a lion?" I suppose that has no relevence to anything as well.

Evidence sir. Where's yours? What you say to "disprove" my thoughts really do nothing but blabber indirect nonsense diverting my original point. But then again, you never were good at observing structured text, were you? If you could, then maybe you wouldn't make claims in your OWN TOPIC that, aside from being untrue, show that you have no clue what the hell happened during the game. What I said would at LEAST make sense to you, even if you didnt agree.

Funny...Darth Vader didn't fight like he wanted to die either, but ANAKIN DID WANT LUKE TO BEAT HIM, even if Darth Vader didn't. Think about it. Anakin was tortured endlessly every day. He wanted peace even if it meant death. Rinoa's spirit still lived in Ultimecia, even if Ultimecia's face was what we saw. And if Rinoa's spirit became corrupted so terribly, don't you think she would want to die, also?

Oh well. If I'm gonna get flamed and looked down on for giving my thoughts, then delete my account immediately. You guys don't want my thoughts, and that's fine. I'm not gonna waste my time with you if this is what FFS is about. this isn't a club; its a forum.

If you're gonna disproove me, then disproove me. I'd certainly like to broaden my knowledge of the game; that's why I saw this as a good opportunity to do so. But you seemed more concerned with ur ego than anything.

Ridiculous LR; grow up.

Ultimately, whether Sorceresses age is irrelevant to the R=U theory anyway since we already know that Rinoa gives up her powers at one point or another. During Time Compression Squall and co. fight 'The Succession of Witches' (ie the Sorceresses between Rinoa and Ultimecia) as they move towards the future. In order for there to be a ‘Succession of Witches', Rinoa must give up her powers to a 'Successor' some time in the future.

So in other words, the only possible way for Rinoa to be Ultimecia is as follows:

1. Rinoa gives up her powers to a successor sorceress.

2. Rinoa, some how, travels to the future.

3. Rinoa re-absobes her powers from whichever sorceress that came before 'Ultimecia'.

4. Rinoa becomes Ultimecia.

gl trying to find a valid reason for why/how that would happen.

Ultimately, whether Sorceresses age is irrelevant to the R=U theory anyway since we already know that Rinoa gives up her powers at one point or another. During Time Compression Squall and co. fight 'The Succession of Witches' (ie the Sorceresses between Rinoa and Ultimecia) as they move towards the future. In order for there to be a �Succession of Witches', Rinoa must give up her powers to a 'Successor' some time in the future.

So in other words, the only possible way for Rinoa to be Ultimecia is as follows:

1. Rinoa gives up her powers to a successor sorceress.

2. Rinoa, some how, travels to the future.

3. Rinoa re-absobes her powers from whichever sorceress that came before 'Ultimecia'.

4. Rinoa becomes Ultimecia.

gl trying to find a valid reason for why/how that would happen.

Good point. I will play through 8 again with this R=U theory in mind and see what I think. Once I finish Kingdom Hearts 2 of course. Also I will try to finish it without summoning any GF's, just for a challenge.

This is one reason i love FF8 more than any other FF, sure some of you may feel this is boring, pointless and stupid, but i enjoy reading peoples theories and supporting evidence concerning the storyline and its characters. I honestly dont think Square could had made this better, its great knowing you may never have a definate answer.

And yes, there is ALOT and i mean fucking ALOT of instances in the game that show it is very easy to believe rinoa is Ultimicia, to see this it is important to pay attaention to each characters personality and the text.

Choose to believe it or choose not to, but i am honestly a little surprised to see such closed minded remarks. Nobody is certain that any of alot these things that are said are for sure true. So to the people who dont believe Rinoa = Ultimicia i respect that and you probly do have alot to back it up, but being like "nope thats not what that means" or "it isnt like that at all", just makes you incredibly ignorant. Since there isnt any overall proof of whats correct and isnt, and when things are like that and everything is a possibilty, you dont have to believe in certan things, but the thought of possibilty should not be denied in someones mind.

I myself feel that the theory is true, that Rinoa is what Ultimicia really is, and i feel the people who also see it that way really spent alot of time thinking this over, which i respect. Theres no actually fact from this theory, which is why its called a theory >.>, everyones mind works differently, and some things add up and come together for each person differently also. So there is no "yes" "no" "right" "wrong", its all opinions, and my opinion is the ones who believe the rinoa/ultimicia spent more time putting things together and thinking them over than ones who just said "nope, not a chance. nothing supports it" cause theres obviously alot that does.

FFVIII is truly a great game ^_^
Must do compilation.

Number one, fuck you. I'm posting my thoughts, and I never said I wanted a "good reputation." I just wanted to say my feelings on this subject so that my voice could be heard. That's the point of a forum, dumbass. Go take ur white collar snobby remarks somewhere else. This is a FORUM.I can see what you are going to be like, you honestly need to let go of your emotions nobody is discerning your credibility, as of yet, this isn't the friendliest place in the world, you may want to know that before you progress.

ROFL you think I'm white collar? I'm an unemployed 14 year old inner-city youth with a single parent family with just enough to support ourselves. In fact the closest to white collar i have is the one I wear to a 45 year old public school.


And it's funny that you say my evidence contradicts itself because your "proof against my theories" seems to be "nuh uh" in more words. You're making up most of this crap out of ur ass instead of noticing patterns in very similar stories...and FF8 and FFX are VERY SIMILAR STORIES. It doesn't matter what fucking world it takes place in. You're assuming it's wrong even though in reality you have no damn clue. I said only that Square wanted us to reflect on this subject, not that it was true...and I'm sorry sir, maybe you don't pay enough attention to story detail, because evidence is all over the place if you look for it. If you really want to proove me wrong, then really try to look for it in your next play through, and if you still can't see it, THEN you can be a dick. At least I'm pulling my theories from the Final Fantasy series instead of saying, "nuh uh" in more words and a mediocre understanding of the story."nuh uh", in what ways prey tell are VIII and X similar? Your patterns cancel each other out, honestly how exactly would Ultimecia fight Rinoa without somehow hurting herself? Why would she fight imprison them in time if she so called "wanted death"? Ultimecia is not Rinoa, because Ultimecia had powers that Rinoa, or any other sorceress for that matter, had. She had the power to jump through time and control past sorceresses, the only one with this power is ellone, that would be your best bet as Ultimecia. Rinoa and Ultimecia have very similar things but the fact of the matter is that not everything matches up.


For God's sake, you said that Rinoa was Laguna's son, and you're telling ME I have no clue?! Please talk some more so u can sound dumber.

Ultimecia's name when directly translated is Artemesia, who was from greek mythology. When her lover (who was actually her brother, and even though Rinoa and Squall weren't brother and sister, they were ALMOST brother and sister. Square wouldn't do the incest thing with their characters in a million years) died, she went insane and dedicated the rest of her life to building a glorious and indestructable shrine for her deceased.Rinoa's a female not a tranny so she can't be Lguna's son, I wold rag on you for saying "dumber" but honetly it's not funny if you're gonna bitch about it. I've already piointed out that they were almost brother and sister, so why would you bring that back up? Really I seem to remember Brother having a dying love for Yuna or am I just being a "dick"?


what about the flashing of Ultimesia's face over Rinoa's at the end? I suppose that was coincidence too, huh? or will you make up more "nuh uh" bullshit to dodge that too?

What about the song called "Maybe I'm a lion?" I suppose that has no relevence to anything as well.

Evidence sir. Where's yours? What you say to "disprove" my thoughts really do nothing but blabber indirect nonsense diverting my original point. But then again, you never were good at observing structured text, were you? If you could, then maybe you wouldn't make claims in your OWN TOPIC that, aside from being untrue, show that you have no clue what the hell happened during the game. What I said would at LEAST make sense to you, even if you didnt agree.

That could have been soo many things, that could have been lightning that sparked a reflection, or that could have been Ultimecia trying to dodge death by taking over Rinoa's body, you see they are an exuberant amount of things you can make up that try to explain r=u but unless you work for square they count very little. What does a song have to do with anything? maybe eyes on me meant there was someone looking at them on the ship :rolleyes:. They do make sense but you don't work for SE so why would I count it true Odin did a thorough job disproving this theory and your futile attempts do nothing but prove him right.


Funny...Darth Vader didn't fight like he wanted to die either, but ANAKIN DID WANT LUKE TO BEAT HIM, even if Darth Vader didn't. Think about it. Anakin was tortured endlessly every day. He wanted peace even if it meant death. Rinoa's spirit still lived in Ultimecia, even if Ultimecia's face was what we saw. And if Rinoa's spirit became corrupted so terribly, don't you think she would want to die, also?Why would you bring that up? Honestly what does Darth Vader have to do with anything? How would wanting death prove or disprove r=u?


If you're gonna disproove me, then disproove me. I'd certainly like to broaden my knowledge of the game; that's why I saw this as a good opportunity to do so. But you seemed more concerned with ur ego than anything.

Ridiculous LR; grow up. ha he said I have an ego why is it that so many new members take me serious? Nobody else does.

With the song 'Eyes On Me', it's the song that Julia sang. Remember that time when her and Laguna were in the hotel? She said his eyes is what helped her come up with lyrics. If you listen to the song, you'll notice many things she said to Laguna that's in the song (or something extremely close to it).

And for the 'Maybe I'm A Lion' song, I'm pretty sure that the lion is Squall's favourite animal because he has so many things that have to deal with lions. Although this may be evidence that support the R=U theory, I just find it that it is a symbol that represents Squall's personality. If you research about lions, you'll notice that there is a connection between Squall and the lions' behavior. That's what I think the song means.

And I also think that the reason it was played during the fight with Griever is because Squall's (who I think has the traits of a lion) trait of protecting his friends (like the lions are with their cubs) came in effect. It's kinda hard for me to explain so I'm sorry if it sounds confusing.

Oh, I don't think there's any doubt that "Eyes on Me" is Julia's song that she performed. The scene you talked about definitely clinches it. That, and the fact it plays during the scene with Squall and Rinoa, and Rinoa is Julia's daughter. And it's obvious that the lyrics are referring back to that "My last night here for you" "Saw you smiling at me" "You'd always be there in the corner / Of that tiny little bar," etc. etc.

I can go through the entire thing, but the gist of every last bit of it is basically, "This can't be proven, but this seems more logical to me because it would support my position, so it must be true."

As for the immortality thing, it's actually knocked down conclusively by the Ultimania. I know what you've said about it already, but it is supposed to be the final word on the game, no?


– it not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress’ lifespan is the same as a normal human’s, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress.

That alone should be case closed. However, since Squall of SeeD so kindly showed us that the major points of the theory can't be proven, there's also the circular reasoning point. On its own, the game offers no real suggestion, implication, or even the possibility that R=U without the player progessing through it with R=U already in his/her head, as evidenced in this very thread by Magneto42.

That's weird. I only clicked it once. =/

I vote we all go beat the truth out of the Square writers.

On a more serious note, I'll start out by saying I'm exactly like Prak and Agent: I don't care whether R=U, but I don't really believe it.

The only argument I'll make against the theory is this: Square would never put something that subtle in FFVIII. I think if they wanted to make Rinoa become Ultimecia in the end, the writers would have probably foreshadowed the hell out of it (much moreso than the alleged foreshadowing in the game) and put right in our faces in bold, sparkling letters "RINOA HAS BECOME ULTIMECIA." Obviously, I'm exaggerating, but I really doubt Squaresoft's writers intended to throw in such a subtle plot device, given their history *cough* FFVII *cough*.

Yeah. I mean, Laguna and Ellone being Squall's parents, that wasn't exactly stated in bold, sparkling letters, but they threw out enough blatant hints that it was quite obvious. Whereas R = U is way more out there.

I heard that Laguna was Squall's father, but how would Ellone be his mother? The only way I can think of if Laguna and Ellone did it a loong time ago (kinda sick, but impossible I think). Wasn't it 17 years in the past when you were controlling Laguna?

I would also like to know where the hints are too.

Ellone? You mean Raine, right? I think that's her name--the chick in Winhill that takes care of Laguna?

Yeah, her name is Raine. Maybe they got confused because I always thought it was Raine. Ellone is much to young to have a 17 year old son.

I would also like to know where the hints are too.

on the red skyship thingy, talk to Ward, Kiros and Laguna

I meant about Ellone being reffered as Squall's mother. I already knew about Raine.

Yeah, okay, yes, I meant Raine but wrote Ellone.

LoL, wouldn't THAT be a heck of a rumor to spread? :laugh:

Square-Enix puts that stuff in there to make people think about and answer the questions for themselves there's no real answer

That's the stereotypical fanboy apologist bullshit answer.

Do transformers have relationships? Like, are there any gay transformers?

R = U is true.

gosh, this topic is like one humongous paradox...
something tells me by the time this topic ends... everyone will be back where they started... >_>

and... btw, how in the world do you guys know all this stuff? I mean, I saw something about a direct translation from Ultimecia to Astwerkalkjdf something in Greek and then some back up story...

I never knew people here were so... analytical about this kinda stuff... >_>


Do transformers have relationships? Like, are there any gay transformers?


LOL

Transformers,
they're homos in disguise.
Transformers,
they change before your eyes.

This theroy is false, why cant people realize that?

Can you prove it's wrong?
Neither side can prove the theory wrong or right, so just drop it completely because it's getting dull.