...had to make that title.

Anyway, at the risk of starting a 12-page, pointless debate about the game, I have a couple of questions regarding the game, seeing as I completed it last night. I'll save my opinions, though.

1) Just before Cloud gives Sephy the Black Materia (again) in the Northern Cave, he informs them that they're about to meet "the real Sephiroth." Maybe I'm illiterate or totally fail at the whole reading comprehension thing, but I totally missed how Cloud would know that to begin with. Every time you run into "him," Cloud acts like it's really Sephy. But he apparently knows that they're fake, despite the fact that he totally doesn't act like it. What gives?

2) The ending. What the crap? Red XIII makes the comment that "Holy's having the opposite effect," which I assume means it's actually helping Meteor--FFVII's translation is quite shoddy in many places. Did he pull that knowledge out of his canine posterior, or what? I would think he must have studied in Cosmo Canyon, but he never came across as any sort of expert in Planet Life. Nothing major really-just a minor "what?" moment, just before the huge "WHAT?" moment--namely, just what the heck happened to every biped on the Planet? With AC out, it's a bit of a moot question, but once the Lifestream saves the day, you don't see anybody. During the "five hundred years later" mess, I searched for those smoke plumes that I keep hearing about, which apparently let the hawkeyed know that there's human life, but I didn't see anything like that.

I'll probably have more...but those are my two for now.

1.) Cloud probably had knowledge of it somewhere in his artificial memory banks. The ones no one has ever told us about. Or it's, just as you said, a plot hole.

2.) That sounds like a translation quirk to me. It could be something deeper, but it seems less likely.

...had to make that title.

Anyway, at the risk of starting a 12-page, pointless debate about the game, I have a couple of questions regarding the game, seeing as I completed it last night. I'll save my opinions, though.

1) Just before Cloud gives Sephy the Black Materia (again) in the Northern Cave, he informs them that they're about to meet "the real Sephiroth." Maybe I'm illiterate or totally fail at the whole reading comprehension thing, but I totally missed how Cloud would know that to begin with. Every time you run into "him," Cloud acts like it's really Sephy. But he apparently knows that they're fake, despite the fact that he totally doesn't act like it. What gives?


I think he knows that from the jenova cells given 2 him...he acts weird because he can kinda control them...he brought all the clones 2 him but the experiment was 4 them 2 meet by themselves cuz the jenova cells cant be seperated and wen they are they will meet (the exoeriment) so i guess maybe he has a bit of control over them

ive but this 2gether from other things people have told me i may be wrong but its from what i heard

1) plot hole
2) he looked out and saw that it wasnt working I guess

...had to make that title.

Anyway, at the risk of starting a 12-page, pointless debate about the game, I have a couple of questions regarding the game, seeing as I completed it last night. I'll save my opinions, though.

1) Just before Cloud gives Sephy the Black Materia (again) in the Northern Cave, he informs them that they're about to meet "the real Sephiroth." Maybe I'm illiterate or totally fail at the whole reading comprehension thing, but I totally missed how Cloud would know that to begin with. Every time you run into "him," Cloud acts like it's really Sephy. But he apparently knows that they're fake, despite the fact that he totally doesn't act like it. What gives?

I remember someone answering this in the last debate thread. That fake sephy is jenova taking sephiroths form. No need for a 12 page debate on that point.


2) The ending. What the crap? Red XIII makes the comment that "Holy's having the opposite effect," which I assume means it's actually helping Meteor--FFVII's translation is quite shoddy in many places. Did he pull that knowledge out of his canine posterior, or what? I would think he must have studied in Cosmo Canyon, but he never came across as any sort of expert in Planet Life. Nothing major really-just a minor "what?" moment, just before the huge "WHAT?" moment--namely, just what the heck happened to every biped on the Planet? With AC out, it's a bit of a moot question, but once the Lifestream saves the day, you don't see anybody. During the "five hundred years later" mess, I searched for those smoke plumes that I keep hearing about, which apparently let the hawkeyed know that there's human life, but I didn't see anything like that.

What???? You'll really have to explain this again.

I remember someone answering this in the last debate thread. That fake sephy is jenova taking sephiroths form. No need for a 12 page debate on that point.

But my question is, how does Cloud know? Until then, he acts like every "fake Sephy" he encounters is the "real" Sephy. Then, at the Northern Cave, he tells the party that they're about to run into the "real" Sephy.

maybe he suddenly gets that knowledge at that specific point

I dont think he did know until he was in the crater. Keep in mind that Cloud was being controlled at that point. Also the answer to the thread title is "No".

You can't say the answer is no until you can prove it. The most definitive thing you've been able to say so far is "I dont think."

Well actually if the previous thread about this was here I could get the proof to say "no" definatly. Someone else posted it not me. I will track it down though eventually.

How will you do that if the thread is gone? And anyway, if your convinced there are no plot-holes, why can't you prove that there isn't?

It wasnt written by the guy he got it somewhere so I can try find it. Also ive proven many time that there arent plotholes. Every time a thread like this comes up im always there. Anyways I intend to play that game again soon because its been a while since I have so I dont remember everything. After I play it we'll end this once and for all.

You have not proven that there are no plotholes. All you've done are prove that many of the things that have been brought up until now were simply ambiguous-looking as a result of bad presentation. This does not mean that there are no holes. It simply means that real holes of any significance have not been presented to you. Deflate your ego a bit and don't make statements you can't support.

Also ive proven many time that there arent plotholes. Every time a

No, you most certainly haven't. If your so sure of yourself, and your so convinced that you've 'proven many times that there aren't plotholes', why can't you do it in this thread?

You have not proven that there are no plotholes. All you've done are prove that many of the things that have been brought up until now were simply ambiguous-looking as a result of bad presentation. This does not mean that there are no holes. It simply means that real holes of any significance have not been presented to you. Deflate your ego a bit and don't make statements you can't support.

You telling me to deflate my ego? Thats funny. Why not present me with "real holes of any significance".

I think Cyancyde is onto a nice one there. Try starting with that.

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.
(disappeared)

Sephiroth says this just before you fight Jenova death in the northern crater. Basically saying that its not the real him. Before this Cloud does act like its the real Sephiroth because he doesnt know any better. Does that clear things up? As for the second point im not actually sure what you mean so you'll have to rephrase. If the last posts were a tab big headed then I apologise.

That could mean anything, vauge and unclear statement.

Im reading this off the script. Read it yourself if you dont believe me. Ive read through that whole part of the game.

Edit: Maby it wont make sence with just that line. Ill get the script up again and make it clearer.

Edit again:

Sephiroth slashed away two black figures.

Cloud: Sephiroth!!

Cid: This is the end!

Sephiroth: You're right. This is the end of this body's usefulness.
(disappeared)

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby......

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

Then you fight Jenova death and then Cloud says the bit about the real Sephiroth being ahead or something.

Cyan's question stands. How can Cloud know that it's the 'real' Sephiroth. The Sephiroth they are refering to could be the one walking around for all they know. Either way, it's vauge and unclear and badly thought out.

Wow. *snicker* I only made the title to get attention--I figured DW would know the answers to my queries, and saying "plothole" in the FFVII forum would be bound to grab his attention.

To clarify my second question:

During the ending FMV (before the credits), the party is aboard the Highwind, watching Meteor approach Midgar. Some force begins acting upon Meteor, which is obviously Holy. In the midst of the apparent "Holy/Meteor clash," Red XIII pipes up, saying that "Holy is having the opposite effect." I assume he means that Holy is helping Meteor as opposed to stopping it. To me, it just looked like Meteor was just busting right through Holy. So the question is just how does Red XIII know that? He's never really come up with any Planet Life wisdom during the rest of the game, even though he's lived with Bugenhagen for so long.

After the credits, are there any clues as to just what happened to humanity? I've heard about some "smoke plumes" during the last FMV with Red XIII and his two kids (you know, after the credits), but upon watching it, I never saw said smoke. And I was looking for it. With AC out, this is a bit of a moot question, but how do we know that everybody (or anybody) survived?

stop right there we're gonna get a useless fucking 68 page debate. The main point about ff7 was that it was awesome, nuff said

Then don't bother reading this thread, Einstein--you won't be tempted to crap all over it with your off-topic, brainless prattle.

By the way, welcome to my ignore list.

i am quite smart but i think einstein may be a bit smarter dumbass

If you're considered smart, then I fear for the future of the world.

i don't see the point. Ah well never mind you're only a fanboy

First of all Diablo I answered his question.


Wow. *snicker* I only made the title to get attention--I figured DW would know the answers to my queries, and saying "plothole" in the FFVII forum would be bound to grab his attention.

Indeed it did grab my attention.lol.


To clarify my second question:

During the ending FMV (before the credits), the party is aboard the Highwind, watching Meteor approach Midgar. Some force begins acting upon Meteor, which is obviously Holy. In the midst of the apparent "Holy/Meteor clash," Red XIII pipes up, saying that "Holy is having the opposite effect." I assume he means that Holy is helping Meteor as opposed to stopping it. To me, it just looked like Meteor was just busting right through Holy. So the question is just how does Red XIII know that? He's never really come up with any Planet Life wisdom during the rest of the game, even though he's lived with Bugenhagen for so long.

After the credits, are there any clues as to just what happened to humanity? I've heard about some "smoke plumes" during the last FMV with Red XIII and his two kids (you know, after the credits), but upon watching it, I never saw said smoke. And I was looking for it. With AC out, this is a bit of a moot question, but how do we know that everybody (or anybody) survived?

Red XIII: It's too late for Holy. Meteor is approaching the Planet.
Holy is having the opposite effect. Forget Midgar, we've gotta worry
about the Planet!

That is indeed what red said at that part. I think Red was just stating the obvious looking at it. Holy is obviously having the opposite effect to meteor being white magic as opposed to black but hes just saying were fucked basically. Not what I would consider a plot hole.

As for these smoke plumes youve heard about. This is the first ive heard of this. Where exactly did you hear about them?

First of all Diablo I answered his question.

No you didn't. All you did was copy and paste a few lines. You didn't in any shape or form explain yourself.








Red XIII: It's too late for Holy. Meteor is approaching the Planet.
Holy is having the opposite effect. Forget Midgar, we've gotta worry
about the Planet!

That is indeed what red said at that part. I think Red was just stating the obvious looking at it. Holy is obviously having the opposite effect to meteor being white magic as opposed to black but hes just saying were fucked basically. Not what I would consider a plot hole.

He means the oppostie effect in that Holy is helping Meteor, not stopping it. Although if he meant it as in Black Magic vs White Magic, he didn't exactly make it clear did he?

No you didn't. All you did was copy and paste a few lines. You didn't in any shape or form explain yourself.

Do you really want me to spell it out for you? What I copied is the part that is relevant. Sephiroth says its the end of this bodys usefulness. Now unless hes a complete tool he wouldnt throw away his body so its obviously not him. Then Cloud says he sences the real sephiroth is ahead and since he has jenova cells in him he can sence sephiroth.



He means the oppostie effect in that Holy is helping Meteor, not stopping it. Although if he meant it as in Black Magic vs White Magic, he didn't exactly make it clear did he?

Why the hell would Holy help meteor? And if Red somehow knew this he would have said something before they summoned it unless of couse he was suicidal.

Do you really want me to spell it out for you?

I just made that last statement to annoy you, truth be told.





Why the hell would Holy help meteor? And if Red somehow knew this he would have said something before they summoned it unless of couse he was suicidal.

Opposite effect= Not doing what it was meant to be doing. Which was stopping Meteor.

I just made that last statement to annoy you, truth be told.






Opposite effect= Not doing what it was meant to be doing. Which was stopping Meteor.

I thought as much but I had to answer.

Can be taken either way but doesnt actually affect things really.

Lol.

Well I'm not going to comment on those plot hole examples right now as tbh i've already forgotten alot of what happened in that game. Still as DW payed such close attention i'm just going to take his word on them for the time being. I really can't be assed to sit through that game again hehe.

I have to admit though I wouldn't mind being reminded of exactly why it is that the Sephiroth killing Aeris scene isn't a plot hole, just out of interest. I remember that being debated in another thread a while back but can't remember what it was that was said now............

I wouldnt mind being reminded why Sephiroth killing Aeris IS a plot hole.

I wouldnt mind being reminded why Sephiroth killing Aeris IS a plot hole.

No probs at all. =)

I know this was went into before but it was mentioned in a thread a while ago that it was strange how Sephiroth (the real one) supposedly managed to kill Aeris after all the clones were meant to have ceased and during the time Sephiroths body was lying in that crater. It was mentioned as a plot hole. I'm fairly sure I remember you arguing the point and proving that it wasn't, although maybe my recollection is inaccurate..............

As for these smoke plumes youve heard about. This is the first ive heard of this. Where exactly did you hear about them?

It was on FFShrine...before the crash. I think it might've been during one of those "FFVII has plotholes!" debates. The point was that smoke=fire and fire=people, so Humanity survived Meteor--a point that wasn't brought up in the ending at all. Seeing as I didn't see any smoke (as I took the person's word for it...), it kind of leaves the question, just what happened to everybody?

@ Giga: The real Sephiroth didnt leave that little ball he was in in the northern cave except for the odd bathroom break. It wasnt the real sephiroth who killed Aeris.

@ Cyancyde : Thats only a shot of midgar. That doesnt mean that everyones dead. Also we know they survived meteor, otherwise how would there be an Advent Children movie?

@ Giga: The real Sephiroth didnt leave that little ball he was in in the northern cave except for the odd bathroom break. It wasnt the real sephiroth who killed Aeris.

Yup true but then weren't the clones supposed to all be dead by that point?

Err no. They were all in the crater wernt they. This scene is before the crater isnt it.

Err no. They were all in the crater wernt they. This scene is before the crater isnt it.

Tbh I really can't remember now lol.

I just seem to remember that in that other thread it was mentioned that they had all ceased before that scene and as that was mentioned by people who remembered the game more clearly I took their word for it at the time. I'd have to play the game to remind myself of exactly how things happened I guess.

Iirc, weren't they all dead? Doesn't Hojo go insane that Cloud is the only that makes it to the 'Reunion'?

Cloud was the only one to actually make it so Sephiroth but remember all the clones in the crater? They were alive then.

but how many got blown off from the winds?????!!!!

Sorry but thats irrelevant and I dont care.

but how many got blown off from the winds?????!!!!
dunno ask sephiroth you can find him in the icicle inn having a quick beverage

I've been thinking about your answer to the "how did Cloud know" question, DW. So Cloud figures out that the Sephy he just ran into (and probably the others) aren't the "real" Sephy. That's not a stretch, really. However, unless I'm totally failing again at the reading comprehension thing, it doesn't really answer how Cloud knows that the "real Sephy" is just ahead. I mean, figuring out that the Sephy's the party's been running into aren't the "real" ones is one thing, but the leap to "well the next one is going to be real!" is another.

Cloud said if im not mistaken that he could feel that sephiroth was there. That it was a great evil blah blah blah. Since he was actually being summoned by sephiroth as opposed to pursueing him its clear that he can indeed feel sephiroths presence. Cloud is after all a clone.

Now if I've followed this discussion (as well as a couple others) correctly, there's a major problem in your reasoning, DW.

Cloud is considered a Sephiroth clone because he was injected with Jenova cells, correct? There is not a direct tie to Sephiroth involved. The bond comes from Jenova, which would mean that Cloud could sense anything with Jenova cells. How could he possibly tell that the Jenova cells he sensed ahead were Sephiroth when he couldn't tell that what he saw before was not?

The point was that smoke=fire and fire=people, so Humanity survived Meteor

Cosmo Canyon has a fire burning, tended by Nanakis tribe. Therefore it is not proof that humanity survived, it does not matter one way or another.

Cloud is after all a clone.
no he isn't

Cloud is considered a Sephiroth clone because he was injected with Jenova cells, correct? There is not a direct tie to Sephiroth involved. The bond comes from Jenova, which would mean that Cloud could sense anything with Jenova cells. How could he possibly tell that the Jenova cells he sensed ahead were Sephiroth when he couldn't tell that what he saw before was not?


Cloud suddenly appeared at the scene.

Scarlet: Hey!! Where did you come from?

Cloud: ...don't know...This place is going to get rough. Better leave things to me and get out of here while you still can!!

Rufus: Leave things to you? Hmph... I don't know what you mean.

Cloud: This is where the Reunion is happening. Where everything begins and ends.

Tifa: Cloud!!

Barret: Hey! We're here to help you!

Cloud: Thanks... Barret. Where's the Black Materia?

Tifa: Cloud!!

Barret: It's safe. I have it.

Cloud: I'll take it from here. Give me the ... Black Materia.

Tifa: You can't hear my voice?

Barret: You alright? Okay then, here. Had a lot of pressure holding this thing.

Tifa: No! Don't! Please stop Cloud!!

Cloud: Thanks. ......leave the rest to me.

...


Cloud levitated up all the way to the top and he is actually controlled by Sephiroth.

Rufus: Who... was that?

Hojo: He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct. Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing. Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to manipulate the Clones themself.

Sephiroth and Cloud are both part of Jenova. They share the same genes, and considering that Jenova is an alien, one can't assume to know what special powers they have. It's entirely logical to establish mind control between Seph and Cloud. It's also quite possible that they were all controlled by Jenova.

@ #2 on the original post - We're not omniscient in FFVII, we didn't make it. Why not just accept things?

Are you trying to prove something? If so, I'm not seeing it.

I edited that post with some of my take, but the gist appears to be that Sephiroth controlled Cloud from the start. That's the actual game script from the crater, but I don't see how it could be misconstrued. You can derive from it what you will.

But that's not what I'm addressing. I'm backing up CyanCyde's argument about Cloud miraculously knowing that the "real" sephiroth was just ahead, even though he had no reason to doubt the authenticity of what he had seen before.

Cloud knowing that is probably because Sephiroth was controlling him. That's what I would think anyways.

Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both
incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong
will from deep within this planet's wound.

Sephiroth is apparently releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planets wound. Cloud would know this because being a clone he is connected to Sephiroth and can feel his presence.

Okay...this is about to go in circles. Cloud apparently "feels" Sephy's will before they even get that close to him, which clues him in to this Sephy's authenticity. Okay...then wouldn't he have known all along that they were running into "fakes" since there wasn't a "strong will" going on?

Also--Is Cloud a clone or isn't he? I mean, in Mideel, Tifa and Cloud go digging and find out that he's really a boy from Nibelheim. I was under the impression that Shinra had captured he and Zack after the original Sephy-Nibelheim incident and they were experimented upon there. If that's correct, Cloud isn't a clone, just a dude infused with Jenova Cells....correct?

Sephiroth Clones, by the definition set in FFVII, ARE just guys infused with Jenova Cells. Even though they undergo the same process as Soldiers they are not considered the same though, as they are not mentally stable enough to prevent the process from destroying their minds.

EDIT: For absolute clarification:


Cloud: I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone
Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure they use when
creating members of SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed
to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells...... For
better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER. It has nothing to do with
Jenova Reunion. But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing. The
combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will and my own weakness are
what created me.

Sephiroth Clones, by the definition set in FFVII, ARE just guys infused with Jenova Cells. Even though they undergo the same process as Soldiers they are not considered the same though, as they are not mentally stable enough to prevent the process from destroying their minds.

Exactly. CyanCyde you just played the game again. Come on!

I humbly apologize for seeing the word 'clone' and thinking of the definition used by EVERYTHING else, be it fictional or no, rather than that contrived mess.

Yes, that was sarcasm. And no, I don't care anymore. You see, I was actually wanting that explained, as opposed to starting a circular, fruitless debate. Here's a news flash: I was actually giving your point of view the benefit of the doubt--namely, there aren't any holes and I just missed something. How you missed that and yet managed to catch everything to fill any plothole arguements is totally beyond me.

Now you're just being bitchy. :(

TeknoBlade, I mean no offense, but you've done quite a bit of "getting bitchy" your self on several occasions.

To address the plotholes point, what I think now is that the game is more unfinished than full of plotholes. And my proof that it is unfinished is here: http://www.angelfire.com/super/ff7/unfinished.html. Come, boy. See for yourself. Basically, there was a great deal of stuff they were still working on when Square released the game, and there could possibly have been better and more thorough explanations for much of the game if they producers had had time to finish. But the demand by the public for the game to be released on time caused them to delete much of what they were working on and rush release the game.