I've long been of the opinion that the characters in Final Fantasy VII sucked and it's amazed me that anyone could possibly like them. I've finally figured out the reason for it. They aren't characters at all. They're avatars.

Most of the characters are nothing more than personality archetypes. They have a basic persona with absolutely no development. This means that almost everyone is going to be similar in some way to those characters. They see those similarities and instantly relate to the characters, even though they have no real personality, essentially filling in the gaps with bits of their own.

This conclusion is based on the fact that many FFVII fans I've spoken to admitted that they liked a particular character because they were so much like them. People see their most basic character traits on screen, portrayed in a way that appeals to their own sense of how they want to be.

Case in point: Cloud is a quiet and fairly unpopular guy that would appeal to the self-image of many "nerds." Tifa's optimistic attitude and sensitivity would draw the attention of a large number of young girls. Vincent has no personality besides brooding angst, but that would appeal to angsty teens.

In this sense, the most popular characters from the game are nothing at all but avatars for the players themselves, which means that my problem isn't with the characters after all. My problem is with the fact that there never were characters to begin with.

Discuss.

But it's not only in FFVII, VIII characters are also that way, they have only that stereotipical personality like Squall- Emo kid, and Selphie- Same as Tifa, the characters are only the avatars of characters, but i still like them although they have nothin more tha stereotype, in IX it becomes even worst Amarant is nothing, he doesn't really have a story, i agree with you, but i still like the characters, but in everygame there's a lonewolf X- Auron X-2 PaineIX- Amarant VIII- Squall VII- Vincent and Cloud, a Happy Girl X- Rikku VII- Tifa VIII Selphie IX- Eiko, it's the same formula...

I know it isn't just FFVII, but it's the worst of the lot about it, followed closely by FFVIII. In the other games, there's usually some defintion to the characters beyond the archetypes, even though there are exceptions and they're usually not the main characters.

And even if you like the avatars, they still suck just by being.

... it also seems that every game has to have a secondary character whose only point in most of the game is to make the main character look somewhat smart by comparison. ie. barett, zell, steiner, wakka, and brother. the only exception to this is kingdom hearts where they make that character the main one

Prak does have a point. But i`ve been thinking, what`s so wrong with this "avatar" concept. Needless to say, almost every RPG on this planet tries to connect with the gamer and using this concept is the route they all go, although i do agree, FFVII was pushing the limits. The concept is tapping into the core of the gamer but with FFVII, you had a vast selection of types of personalities so it was quite hard for someone not to get drawn to a certain character. But i ask, why is it so wrong? or should i say, why frown upon it?, everyone does it.

Also Griff, your right but everyone needs a "secondary character". But although they may make us feel smarter there also reliable, and there respect is for reliabilty.

You don't expect me to take you seriously do you? After all the other crap you go on about.

Well, Prak, I suppose you're right. But I also agree with Dirge. This "avatar"-concept isn't all that wrong. I mean, relating to the characters in RPG's is an important part the games (well, for me, at least). Of course, making it so that every person around the globe can find themselves in the game is going way too far, and FFVII did pretty much excactly that. But that isn't the case in all FFs. There is a little character development eve in FFVII, but the characters just develop into other archtypes.

Good one there Prak.

I do know what you mean, its just pointless when people idolise themselves from a character from a game. I can't really say that I have any favourite characters about their personality, I don't even think of that when I am playing the game, my favourite characters are who have the best ability or strength, etc.

:P

I will say one more thing. I didn`t mean to quash Praks idea i was merely saying that it`s in every other RPG. Although, at least other RPGs, i.e FFIX has character development of theirselfs aswell as drawing you into the character. Anyone can make a basic character that connects with the player but to also add a good character development to them without breaking the connection with the gamer is a scare skill which FFIX has unlike FFVII.

FFVII characters, while perfect for a connection with the player there only realy tapping into personalities which is still very basic.

i dont like the game for the characters...i like the game for the story

FFVII characters, while perfect for a connection with the player there only realy tapping into personalities which is still very basic.


it might be basic, but the whole point to Role Playing Games, is you relate with the characters and you play out their roles in whichever way you please. in FF7 you get many oppertunities as Cloud to either be the loner type he comes out to be or the oppertunity to try and be outgoing as such.

You're wrong about that. The very essence of role-playing is to assume the role of a character, not to turn the character into yourself. In that sense, FFVII is barely even an RPG.

My point in all this is that FFVII's characters were pitifully bad, but are actually popular because of that. I find it pretty hilarious.

i dont like the game for the characters...i like the game for the story
oh and thank god that the characters of a videogame have nothing to do with its story

i dont like the game for the characters...i like the game for the story
like it or not slash, it is mainly the characters who shape the story. so in essence you have to like the game for the characters, because if they werent the way they are the story would be completely different. square knows this and makes all their characters easily connectable to most people to insure that people like the game. for example one of my first ff games was 8 and one of the reasons i liked it was because i felt and understanding for both squall and irvine (which i might add still scares me to this day). and it was because i liked that ff game that i bought other ones after, and i felt connections in those games to. it is this that will probably mean ill be buying ff games until they stop making them. and the same usually goes for most people. its not something im proud of, but it is that connection that draws us in

But the fact is that Squaresoft completely sacrificed artistry and storytelling in favor of connecting players to the non-characters, which further proves that the game's story was actually crap. Square used the ego of the players to draw them into the game instead of truly compelling characters or a good story. Very cheap, although undeniably effective.

Perhaps I shall make my triumphant return to posting often, with an FFVII thread such as this.

Cloud: He is always confused and has no idea as to what is going on inside his head. You often wonder whether Tifa or Aeris is Cloud's real girl? Well, heck, even he doesn't really pay much attention to it because of his confusion. Much as nerds.

Tifa: She is a girl who can kick some ass, and likes to show that she can make a difference with her actions. The size of her breasts are extraordinary, even if they are pixels. And when she doesn't get something her way, she'll usually scream about it or get pissed. Much as young girls. Girls don't get the attention that they deserve in life; sports, jobs, etc. So they try to show their 'mean' side however they can. A lot of girls want bigger breasts, hence Tifa. Also, PMS.

Aeris: Now she is this really quiet and sweet girl who tries all these 'sneaky' ways to get Cloud to notice him. Aeris is a goody-two-shoes who goes to church and wants everyone to be happy. Much like girls in school who have a crush on the boy in front of him, and pokes him with a pencil all day in the hopes that he will turn around and look at her.

Barrett: Possibly the easiest one to decipher. He struts around acting like he is the big shit on campus, throwing f-bombs all over the place and marking his territory. His weapon of choice is the gun, and likes to shoot everything up. Much like gangstas and 'boyz from da hood'.

Yuffie: Much a deceiving little girl, but desperately wants to fit in and be noticed. Tries to outsmart you when you first meet her, but when she is turned away she will scurry to you. Later, she steals your Materia and makes your journey a lot more difficult at the time. Finally, stays with you for good after realizing that she has you wrapped around her fingers. Much like blood-sucking girlfriends do to their boyfriends. They'll stab you in the back more than once, and then if you go back to them, you are whipped.

Vincent: Much of his past is shrouded in secrecy, and is a little skeptical about telling you what has happened to him. You meet him in a coffin, and at first are startled by his presence. But over time, you and him gain trust in each other. Much like a new kid moving to a new town/school. You notice him, and are surprised to see a new face. But until you two trust each other, you'll tend to stay far away and be skeptical.

Cait Sith: Nobody is sure what this character is, or what it's motives are. It tries to impress you by reading your future, but fails miserably and joins your party without your permission. Turns out it's nothing more than a robot controlled by Reeve to spy on the party. Steals the Keystone, but later sacrifices his life to save your party; maybe out of guilt? But another Cait Sith is born. Much like a peon under a king's rule. It doesn't approve of everything the King does, but does it anyway. After time, the guilt builds up and he wants to stray from his leader and find a new one. But the only way to do so, is something dramatic; possibly end it's life.

Red XIII: Is an animal who hates his father and doesn't want any part with him. He is a rebel who does what he wants because he thinks his father betrayed him. But later finds out that his father died saving not only his son, but his wife as well. Then Red views his father as a hero. Much like a son and his father fighting in the Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force. His father leaves him at such a young age, but doesn't understand until he grows up and realizes the sacrifice of it all.

Cid: He is a badass who's got the whole 'tough guy' look going on; cigarette in mouth, evil looking grin, snappy attitude. He orders around a woman throughout the game, but shows his soft side when she is in serious danger. But underneath all the rough skin, there is a man who has a goal to reach something of a greater magnitude; a higher calling in life, if you may. Much like a bully.

holy freaking crap dude. you read way into that. good job. personaly i dont play the ff games. (please dont kill me) ive seriouly tries though. but now i know why ive been oddly drawn to them. it not just becuse there pretty, but because im completely imersed by the epic and dynamic story line. and for the fact that for the fact that they represent me and the people i know in my life. sweet. thats kind of deep. the people at square enix have to be excelent story tellers to have been able to emerse people on such a level were they feel the are in that state of being. cool. i do belive im a Cloud. oh, and Prof. you forgot sephoroth.

He didnt put Sephiroth because he isnt a main good character. If you would have played FFVII when I let you borrow it you would have known that.

Don't revive old threads.

Seriously. This is a fucking year old.

there is no "never revive threads" rule. it was an interesting topic. he expanded on it. it's not like he just said, "lol ur so rite." there's nothing that wrong with this. I wouldn't do it, but it's not "against the rules."

more than one person being OMG OLD THREAD REVIVED is a lot more annoying and detracts more from the quality of the board, imho.

I see your point, well at least I finally have some clarity on this whole 'thread' revival thing. I always thought it was a no-no tbh.

I thought that everyone frouned opon it.

Well let me add my two cents I believe that this concept is somewhat related to the person characteristic. I believe they draw strength from the name and the image and emotions of there charchter. When he game/story/movie charachter makes a connection to there persona they feel that they may as well have there strength. Or there is the as I like to call it

'The Wimp Theory'
everyone knew a scrawny little loser that everyone picked on, then they kissed a popular kids ass until they became mutual friends and started sucking the popular kids glory like a leech. That is what I believe some do they start off as nobodys and try to sap a sort of respect from the name and image. Then again there is

'The Loser Theory'
It's been sice the dawn of time respect may come from fear, I remember when I was younger everyone wanted to play Star Wars and almost everyone wanted to be DV because of his legendary strength and his evil status. Barely anybody wanted to be the good guy Luke because he was the underdog. Their fear turns into respect, and they now have a new Idol.

So...Which theory do you fit under, LR?

j/k

I've had both of those types hagging around me. I hated them with a passion. But you forgot 1 important theory. "The Poser Theory!"

That's the one where the person is sick of their life and tries to where the mantle of the character in hopes of being seen as a different person. And with this new "image" of theirs, they try to fit into society without thinking of the repercussions that will follow from their peers. And in the end, all they have become is a loser sitting with a group of manga nerds at the cafeteria table, listening to his new "friends" as they talk about how cool Inuyasha is. His life drains to nothing without a care from him, because he is now accepted all because of a masque he wears.

I hate posers. They always get on my nerves.

I knew that was coming my name comes from Lion's Pride It means stregth obviously, it was lost in the server rollback so I made it Lionheart Reborn which means I came back it's a FF relevent play on words. Oh yes that is a valid one, I've actually lost a few friends because they decided to act like something they weren't to make new friends, I mean life is all about originality.

Hmm....
To the topic creator--You bring up interesting points!....I think what you're saying is somewhat true...

There was something I wanted to talk about, though--


But the fact is that Squaresoft completely sacrificed artistry and storytelling in favor of connecting players to the non-characters, which further proves that the game's story was actually crap. Square used the ego of the players to draw them into the game instead of truly compelling characters or a good story. Very cheap, although undeniably effective.

I don't think the game's story was 'crap'...
I thought it was wonderful...!
The story delved deep into humanity's flaws, corruption, and hubris...
The ShinRa company and greed for power; Sephiroth's lust for power and overconfidence; Hojo, his lack of compassion, and his self-destructive science obsession; Cloud's self delusion and shame in himself....all those were horribly prevalent weaknesses and flaws characters showed, and all those flaws are very real in our world, too....

And then, we have the disaster--the meteor...that brought ShinRa, AVALANCHE, and all the people of the world together....
FFVII is about the vices and terrible things humanity is capable of, and at the same time about the hope for humanity and the world.

Even though all the antagonists and many people in the world of FFVII are very flawed, and even the main character himself...
Holy chose to spare humanity.

...I really think that....FFVII's story is a work of art, by itself....

How nice. I'm afraid that little tirade was utterly ineffective if you wanted to counter anything I said, however. The problems with the game's story have been thoroughly documented elsewhere, so I'm not going to bother recounting them here. I suggest you look them up though.

Oh, I see...!

I'm sorry about that...I'm new here...><

I just thought...the story was wonderful, and I enjoyed it....
It's possible that it's not as great as I thought it was...but I still enjoyed it!

And you seem a little lofty, mister. Maybe you do have a right to act this way, but we'll have to talk a little more to make it clear to me. >=]

Well seeing as this threads been revived hope no one minds me adding a reply in.

Thats an interesting point about the characters being no more than avatars. Much as I did start to realise that the characterisation was pretty shallow after playing the game for a while, I didn't quite think about it from that angle.

Thinking about it that makes alot of sense. It seems to me that as it was a quick and easy way for the game to become popular with gamers, SE decided that they could easily get away with being lazy as they probably already realised at that point that it would work to their advantage. I think it's such a shame as the game could have been so much better, and much more enjoyable as a result.

Exactly. Squaresoft preyed upon the ignorance of younger/inexperienced gamers by throwing aside nearly all the traditional paradigms of the gaming industry. They made something that was an utter mockery of what games were supposed to be, and therefore poisoned the minds of a multitude of people against games that were actually made to be played, making them believe that ridiculous ego trips were the point of the industry.

I wouldn't say that, I would say Square just left the characters incomplete so that the characters became melleable, targeting a rather large group of shallow insecure kids/teens.

That's exactly what I'm saying (albeit overly simplified), so I have no idea what you're disagreeing with. Perhaps you just don't think that's as wrong as I do?

Exactly. Squaresoft preyed upon the ignorance of younger/inexperienced gamers by throwing aside nearly all the traditional paradigms of the gaming industry. They made something that was an utter mockery of what games were supposed to be, and therefore poisoned the minds of a multitude of people against games that were actually made to be played, making them believe that ridiculous ego trips were the point of the industry.

Oh...! I see now!
Mm.
I've this in the gaming industry, too. Most games now are made to be "fashionable" and "cool", rather than how they used to be...and I've talked to many people who think graphics are more important and even dislike FF7 because of its out-dated graphics....
Things that are fashionable don't create classics....they make things that will last only as long as the fashion lasts.....

The difference, though, is that I think FF7 IS a classic...! It might be a little simple....but it will be remembered in the future, I'm sure.....
It's still remembered now, and it's almost been 10 years.....

Hmf. The only problem I have is that you make it seem like FF7 is complete trash.
If I saw a bunch of rotting meat and moldy cheese in a dustbin, and then I saw FF7 in another dustbin...I would take FF7 out of the dustbin, but I wouldn't take the rotting or moldy stuff out....>>

Hmf. The only problem I have is that you make it seem like FF7 is complete trash.
If I saw a bunch of rotting meat and moldy cheese in a dustbin, and then I saw FF7 in another dustbin...I would take FF7 out of the dustbin, but I wouldn't take the rotting or moldy stuff out....>>

Hmm, he only made it sound like trash, I think he's easing off the FFVII bashing :p

Like a few others I have to agree with Prak assertation that the VII cast are more avatarial in nature, but I disagree that FFVII poisoned gamers minds. FFVII was the first RPG style game I ever played and because I enjoyed it ( flaws be dammed) I went on to play and enjoy most of the FF series, with only FFVIII leaving something to be desired ( btw that is NOT an opening for yet another FFVII vs FFVIII debate)

Maybe Square could have done better, maybe if they re-release FFVII for the PS3 they will iron out some of Praks noted flaws in the game, maybe they wont.

I have to admit that yes I saw alot of Cloud in myself at that age, quiet, lonsome, shy and uncertain, in fact I still see him in me even now, and I guess thats one of the reasons I like him so much. But then I also see a bit of Sabin(FFIII/FFVI) in me as well so it wasn't just that 'recognition' fact that made me like his character, I felt I could feel his struggle ( a struggle I haven't had to face in my life, because despite everything, come glory or defeat, I've always been myself)

So yes, I agree with Prak that the characters in FFVII are somewhat avatars, but I disagree that thats the only reason ( even if I haven't convinced him, and I probably havent :P )

Oh...! I see now!]

The difference, though, is that I think FF7 IS a classic...! It might be a little simple....but it will be remembered in the future, I'm sure.....
It's still remembered now, and it's almost been 10 years.....



Thats the problem though. Final Fantasy 7 has become a classic in the minds of so many people but for the wrong reasons and all due to SE's lack of interest in producing games of high quality and a high priority of making an easy profit.

I think it's pretty silly that they didn't consider just how much more successful the game would be if they had chosen to do things differently, as at least they should have recognised that they would do even better out of it. It's a pity that a company like that, capable of producing better games, chooses to stoop to such levels. Still, unless enough of their fan base draws attention to the issue, i doubt they'll recognise how wrong that attitude was and is unfortunately.

Mm...
That reminds me of Dirge of Cerberus....
Dirge of Cerberus was alright, but there were a lot of problems with it, too....
I'd rather not have Square make FFVII their "guinea-pig" game, where they feel safe trying new things out without much experience because people like FFVII....

World of Warcraft was Blizzard's first step into MMORPGs, and they did it wonderfully! But that was because they really looked into the genre, and have found the things that they themselves, as gamers, have enjoyed, wanted, and disliked....
And they nearly topped the genre, on their first effort....

It doesn't feel like Square Enix has done such a good job....
Even though they are new, I don't think that's an excuse to make their games....well..."sloppy". ><

But as I've said time and time again, Square does it intentionally. They know that they have a large rabid fanbase that will buy whatever they put out as long as it has FFVII stamped on it. Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus are proof of that. Those same people are going to prove once more that they'll buy garbage when S-E releases Crisis Core, which is probably going to be just as bad as the other parts of their compilation. Square-Enix knows they have a good thing going. All they have to do is make up random stuff they think will look cool and make fankids drool, then assign a meaning to it later when the opportunity presents itself.

In a perverse way, you can't really blame SE, can you? I mean, you're right, there are a lot of people that will buy FF7 related junk, cos well, it's FF7 related junk, and they exploit and milk that fact as much as they can. :(

Oh, I don't blame them at all. If their fans are willing to pay out the ass for garbage, that's their own business. I just begrudge it because they could be making better games, but fans let them get away with churning out crap based on nothing more than a name. It's the fans I have a problem with, not the expectedly greedy corporation that cuts corners on their product because the consumer base lets them get away with it.

Sadly, this can be applied to a lot more then just SE, most walks of life to be quite honest. :(

But as I've said time and time again, Square does it intentionally. They know that they have a large rabid fanbase that will buy whatever they put out as long as it has FFVII stamped on it.

Mm.
Blizzard also had Warcraft stamped on their newest MMORPG, and they still did a wonderful job with the game, even if the franchise was recognized and had many fans...

I don't think Square is living up to itself!! Though it has an excuse, I don't think it's a very good one! >=(

It's simple, they don't have to try to make money, so they don't.

Considering that so many of the fans are as young as 12 or 13 though it's hardly suprising that they don't look beyond what entertains them personally when it comes to those kind of games as to them it's just a way to pass spare time and not something worth putting alot of thought into

Still admittedly with other fans it is suprising that they are willing to throw away their money so easily on such products. Guess it goes to show that so long as they find something enjoyable about what they have purchased, despite whether or not it's low standard, then they don't consider spending the money a waste even though it is.

Mm....
I suppose that the bad quality of the compilation games has a reasonable excuse, then....

I just don't see why they aren't...embarrassed...about releasing this sub-standard work.
>> Don't they have their own standards? Or...is it just all about money now...?

I consider ''wasting money'' to be entirely subjective.
Was it John Lennon who said ''Money is never wasted, if you enjoy wasting it''. It was something to that effect anyway.

I just don't see why they aren't...embarrassed...about releasing this sub-standard work.
>> Don't they have their own standards? Or...is it just all about money now...?

They arent embarassed because they know that they can so easily get away with it, and certainly getting money and getting it in the easiest and fastest way possible certainly appears to be what is the most important to them.

Unfortunately, as has already been touched upon in here, for as long as people choose to remain blind to this and continue to buy such products SE will most likely continue to take this as the green light to carry on as they are for a long time yet.

DODGERS DOWN 2-1

OH YEAH!

They arent embarassed because they know that they can so easily get away with it, and certainly getting money and getting it in the easiest and fastest way possible certainly appears to be what is the most important to them.

Mm, alright....
So they're in the video game business for the business part if it, not the video game part of it.

...><

tbh, i think Praks talkin out of his arse again...

...

....oh look a door!!

Is that so? Prove it.

(btw - havent read the whole thread, just first post - whoa 2005?!? oh well)

Quote - Case in point: Cloud is a quiet and fairly unpopular guy that would appeal to the self-image of many "nerds." Tifa's optimistic attitude and sensitivity would draw the attention of a large number of young girls. Vincent has no personality besides brooding angst, but that would appeal to angsty teens.

Well the way i see it, this can really be argued to many or most FF games, Not just FF7, i mean, Squall has (in my opinion) a similar attitude if not personality to Cloud (only my opinion btw) So wouldnt make that statement true to FFVIII aswell, Quistis being all sensible and mature - could appeal to people who are, well - sensible and mature (or at least think they are), Selphie being "Spunky" - etc, etc....

Basically where im going with this is, i dont think its fair to say that a majority of people are attracted more to a particular character than others because they have a similar personna.

...

...
Or do i owe you an apology?

Back on the first page of this thread, I said that FFVIII was nearly as bad about it as FFVII was.

It most certainly does seem fair to me to say that. I've seen a great many kids claim to like the characters because they're so much like them. Add in a bit of common sense and some basic psychology, then the whole thing makes sense.

So let me simplify this whole discussion...

...you dont like FFVII - because some guy(s) you spoke to, is too much like the main character?

You fail.

I am talking about a concensus, not the idiotic ramblings of a single fan.

ok then,

hows this, you dont like ff7 because (almost) everybody you speak to is Cloud!

Right now, I'm scratching my head and wondering if you can *possibly* be serious.

Do You Have Hair Prak?

- And also, yes i was serious from those last posts, that is what you said - just simplified!!

So SCRATCH AWWWAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY

That is way too retarded to be worth responding to.

I wonder if anyone actually has anything useful to contribute or if the revival of this thread was just a waste of everyone's time.

Do You Have Hair Prak?

- And also, yes i was serious from those last posts, that is what you said - just simplified!!

So SCRATCH AWWWAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY

You know it might help if you actually read the thread properly. From what you've posted it's pretty obvious you've paid hardly any attention to what Prak has been saying and have got the total wrong end of the stick :rolleyes:

ok then,

hows this, you dont like ff7 because (almost) everybody you speak to is Cloud!

haha

What the fook!?

Are you mentally retarded?

im not retarded...im a very special boy!!

why do you avoid the question PRAK?

Consensus - majority

(tbf...maybe i should read the thread.....to be continued)

lal lalala lala lalalaa

im not retarded...im a very special boy!!

why do you avoid the question PRAK?

If you had actually asked sensible questions in relation to what this thread is about then maybe you would have got a response. :rolleyes:

I think what he means is...

"Do you dislike FF7's characters because you find the reason that many others like them too simple?"

>>
If that was the case, you shouldn't let what others enjoy get in the way of your own enjoyment!
Love in order to love! Don't love in order to be different!

That's retarded. I disliked the characters on their own lack of merit. I came to this conclusion long after that.

Also, you're perverting the meaning of the thread. The point isn't about whether people like the characters or not. It also is not about whether they should like the characters or not. It is simply about why the characters are liked and how it ties into my long-standing arguments that FFVII is a poor game.

You said that people would like the characters of this game, because of the way they are...
The thing that you brought up was that you felt that the reason most people had was shallow....
I think you have a right to say that, too!
But not everyone who likes the characters have the same shallow reasons.

Mm...that's what I am trying to say.

...>> Otherwise, you could argue that Mario Bros. was a shallow game....

...>> Otherwise, you could argue that Mario Bros. was a shallow game....

You've met someone who can find the slightest connection between themselves and a weird Japanese/Italian plumber that fights turtles? I'd like an introduction.

I don't think anyone holds a sword as big as Cloud does...and no one's ever fought houses that shot rockets at you....

>>

That wasn't the point!!
....why do people like Mario?

I think the reason people still love the original Mario Bros. is because it was the first--it was a breakthrough for video games....
By today's standards, there are better games than Mario Bros. (some of the other mario installments), but you can still enjoy the original, too....

I think that's a lot of the reason why people talk about FF7 so much...It was also a breakthrough for video gaming--for RPGs, especially...
By today's standards, a lot of FF7 is very incomplete and it doesn't match up to how games and RPGs are today....
You can play the newer games, and enjoy a deeper, more complex plot, but I think you can still enjoy FF7, too...

When playing older games, don't set your standards so high that it's too difficult to enjoy the game! Playing older games by today's standards sometimes might hurt enjoyment....
If you're playing the game for game history analysis or something like that, judging by today's standards is fine, but that's only because your goal when playing isn't to enjoy...you're analyzing instead....

Mario remains, to this day, a series that digs deep for the inner child. I've loved playing Mario games since I could read, and I'll probably still love them once I start balding. I'd wager that this applies to most of the people that like Mario a lot. VII is a completely different story. It doesn't grab you somewhere that it can hold onto. Once you get over the nostalgia factor and look at it for what it is, there isn't much to debate about.

I think I love FFVII the way you do with Mario....
=]
Maybe it's just me...but.....
I'm sure there are some others who feel the way I do, just like I'm sure others feel the same way about you do about Mario. I almost have that sort of thing with Mario, too...though my first game was Super Mario World, and I haven't had as much experience with the earlier games....

I remember the first time I watched my dad play FF7...I didn't really understand much of what was going on....(I was 8 years old).
From back then, what I remembered the most was....the Battle Arena, Neo-Bahamut, and Chocobo Racing. =] I remember changing the window colors to rainbow too....>>
I guess what stuck with me was just the feeling of playing FF7...I loved the feeling of just playing it...I didn't really know the story back then....
When I replayed it, I was overwhelmed with what I missed, and what I didn't understand....and that I finally understood....

final fantasy vii though is no good i mean suikoden v has like 108 stars and then probably 20+ characters and they are all better than cloud imo except maybe euram he annoyed me so there suikoden v wins

Zomg!
Have you played Suikoden II, then?
=] If you liked Suikoden V, you'll definitely like II!
The only problem is Suikoden II is very rare these days...they only sold around 89,000 copies during its release before they stopped printing it...><
...>> If you really have trouble finding it (it costs like $80-100 on ebay or something)....email me! [email protected]. << >>

....
Stay away from Suikoden IV, though....

man i have all the suikoden games i have two of the second two man no need to worry about me on the suikoden front

but really u like suikoden so u can't be too bad i say but whatever man with final fantasy vii

Don't agree with u,Prak.

U say that people like the chars because they saw themselves in them.And that's pathetic in other words.

Well,these chars were made by humans...!The storyline was also writed by humans.Most authors write about what they have inside of them or maybe what the would want to happen in them.So I guess it's natural that these chars have that human characteristics(they can be confused,cheerful,sweet,cruel)
People who share the same or a similar traumatic experiance tend to feel sympathy for each other.It's common sight. Also ppl who share the same interests also tend to like each other.
So I don't find it bad if someone likes a char because some aspects of his "personality" match his.It' natural.

Well,these chars were made by humans...!The storyline was also writed by humans.Most authors write about what they have inside of them or maybe what the would want to happen in them.So I guess it's natural that these chars have that human characteristics(they can be confused,cheerful,sweet,cruel)
People who share the same or a similar traumatic experiance tend to feel sympathy for each other.It's common sight. Also ppl who share the same interests also tend to like each other.
So I don't find it bad if someone likes a char because some aspects of his "personality" match his.It' natural.

While you are right in saying that it's natural for people to like a character that they see aspects of themselves in, that's still doesn't change the fact that the character types in FFVII were poorly put together which is explained in the first post of this thread.

The actual point being made isn't that the characters weren't likable, certainly they are likable to a huge amount of gamers or the game wouldn't be as popular as it is today, but that SE's way of making them likable was lazy as there's alot more to making a character good than picking out one or two personality aspects which will appeal to a wide audience.

I don't think anyone holds a sword as big as Cloud does...and no one's ever fought houses that shot rockets at you....

>>

That wasn't the point!!
....why do people like Mario?

I think the reason people still love the original Mario Bros. is because it was the first--it was a breakthrough for video games....
By today's standards, there are better games than Mario Bros. (some of the other mario installments), but you can still enjoy the original, too....

I think that's a lot of the reason why people talk about FF7 so much...It was also a breakthrough for video gaming--for RPGs, especially...
By today's standards, a lot of FF7 is very incomplete and it doesn't match up to how games and RPGs are today....
You can play the newer games, and enjoy a deeper, more complex plot, but I think you can still enjoy FF7, too...

When playing older games, don't set your standards so high that it's too difficult to enjoy the game! Playing older games by today's standards sometimes might hurt enjoyment....
If you're playing the game for game history analysis or something like that, judging by today's standards is fine, but that's only because your goal when playing isn't to enjoy...you're analyzing instead....

Frankly, you're insane if you think there are games that are significantly better than the Mario games. Pretty much every one of them has been top-notch. They're pretty much the model for refined gameplay.

FFVII wasn't a breakthrough in any sense but marketing. Everything that the game did had been done better in older games. The only way it surpassed its predecessors was in reaching a wider audience.

A truly good game stands the test of time. Even today, someone can play Galaga and be just as entertained by it as they were two decades ago.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with looking at games with a critical eye. A well-constructed game will be impressive no matter how closely a person looks at it, provided that they understand what elements define quality.


I think I love FFVII the way you do with Mario....
=]
Maybe it's just me...but.....
I'm sure there are some others who feel the way I do, just like I'm sure others feel the same way about you do about Mario. I almost have that sort of thing with Mario, too...though my first game was Super Mario World, and I haven't had as much experience with the earlier games....

I remember the first time I watched my dad play FF7...I didn't really understand much of what was going on....(I was 8 years old).
From back then, what I remembered the most was....the Battle Arena, Neo-Bahamut, and Chocobo Racing. =] I remember changing the window colors to rainbow too....>>
I guess what stuck with me was just the feeling of playing FF7...I loved the feeling of just playing it...I didn't really know the story back then....
When I replayed it, I was overwhelmed with what I missed, and what I didn't understand....and that I finally understood....

In other words, you're admitting that a great deal of your love for the game comes purely from nostalgia and the fact that you've never dared to look at the game objectively.


Don't agree with u,Prak.

U say that people like the chars because they saw themselves in them.And that's pathetic in other words.

Well,these chars were made by humans...!The storyline was also writed by humans.Most authors write about what they have inside of them or maybe what the would want to happen in them.So I guess it's natural that these chars have that human characteristics(they can be confused,cheerful,sweet,cruel)
People who share the same or a similar traumatic experiance tend to feel sympathy for each other.It's common sight. Also ppl who share the same interests also tend to like each other.
So I don't find it bad if someone likes a char because some aspects of his "personality" match his.It' natural.

What Giga_Flare said, plus some mean-spirited overtones and a heavy dose of mockery.

man i have all the suikoden games i have two of the second two man no need to worry about me on the suikoden front

but really u like suikoden so u can't be too bad i say but whatever man with final fantasy vii
Alright man.
XD
I'm a girl, by the way.


Frankly, you're insane if you think there are games that are significantly better than the Mario games. Pretty much every one of them has been top-notch. They're pretty much the model for refined gameplay.


Grrmmphhh....
I never said the Mario games weren't top-notch! I said that..."there are better games than Mario Bros. (some of the other mario installments)" -- I meant that there were games better than the original Mario Bros., some examples being the later mario installments. >>

And if I've never looked at the game with a critical eye, then I wouldn't be writing an FFVII Glitch FAQ.

Humf...
Please don't read me wrong.

And FFVII has stood the test of time so far--people are still arguing over it today.

...
I had a question....
What exactly constitutes a deep character?
The FFVII characters are 'avatars' of personality...so are they shallow? What would help make them deep?

Grrmmphhh....
I never said the Mario games weren't top-notch! I said that..."there are better games than Mario Bros. (some of the other mario installments)" -- I meant that there were games better than the original Mario Bros., some examples being the later mario installments. >>

I could continue to discuss this, but it is rather off-topic, so I'm not going to pursue it.


And if I've never looked at the game with a critical eye, then I wouldn't be writing an FFVII Glitch FAQ.

Oh? I have no way to know that you didn't just look at the game, find some glitches, and say, "Glitches. I find these funny and endearing, so I will write a FAQ to tell others about them." Such a perspective would not be critical at all!


And FFVII has stood the test of time so far--people are still arguing over it today.

These two statements do not correlate. And no, FFVII has not withstood the test of time. For examples of how it has not, look first at the graphics. They are clearly inferior to most other PSX games, even many of the early ones. Upon looking at the game, it is easy to recognize that it under-utilized the system's power, so it did not withstand that test. Then there's the gameplay. When FFIX was released, its gameplay was far more polished. The level of difference means that FFVII did not withstand that test of time. I can go on, but I'll stop there.


I just want to ask a question...
What exactly constitutes a deep character?
The FFVII characters are 'avatars' of personality...so are they shallow? What would help make them deep?

Yes, they are shallow. The other two questions can be answered at once.

A character with depth is one that is fleshed out beyond a mere generic personality type. Such a character has quirks, strengths and flaws, both large and small. Such a character has motives that are made clear and not subject to individual interpretation. They can surprise you by acting in ways that may even seem contrary to their nature in certain situations. They take on a life of their own and drive a story forward instead of being driven by it.

Those traits were absent from the avatars in FFVII.

Cloud!
He was isolated, at first certain of himself, and wants to live out the glory of another person...
But he was delusional, full of self-pride that he finally realized were never part of his life...and he completely breaks down at one point.
At the end of the game, he is much more friendly, and is different than the cold 'himself' that was at the beginning of the game, since he has returned to what he was before the experimentation by Hojo.

Tifa--
She might be "tough-girl" that gets what she wants, but throughout a lot of the game, she shows that she's not as sure of herself as she tries to make herself out to be.
On the date scene in Gold Saucer, she can't bring herself to say what she feels. Earlier, when she heard inconsistencies with what Cloud said, she didn't want to say anything since she was afraid that it might confuse Cloud and worsen his condition.

Ack! I need to go to class...
We'll finish this later!!

Cloud!
He was isolated, at first certain of himself, and wants to live out the glory of another person...
But he was delusional, full of self-pride that he finally realized were never part of his life...and he completely breaks down at one point.
At the end of the game, he is much more friendly, and is different than the cold 'himself' that was at the beginning of the game, since he has returned to what he was before the experimentation by Hojo.

Self-pride, as you put it, never actually played into it. That is a facet you added to make his actions make sense. That is exactly what the avatar concept is all about. Also, you never knew what he was like before being experimented on. All you ever knew was that he was an introverted loner. Again, you are applying new facets to the character to flesh it out because the game does not provide that for you.

The changes in Cloud's personality happened all at once at a relatively early stage of the game with no real justification. It was an example of the game's characters being tailored to the needs of the overall story instead of defining it.


Tifa--
She might be "tough-girl" that gets what she wants, but throughout a lot of the game, she shows that she's not as sure of herself as she tries to make herself out to be.
On the date scene in Gold Saucer, she can't bring herself to say what she feels. Earlier, when she heard inconsistencies with what Cloud said, she didn't want to say anything since she was afraid that it might confuse Cloud and worsen his condition.

Ack! I need to go to class...
We'll finish this later!!

Tough girl that gets what she wants? That was never implied by the game. By applying more facets to fill gaps, you're proving my point very nicely!

These facets weren't mine...!
I thought...you were the one who.....

.......
*checks*
....
oh
It was Professor Nintendohead--

Cloud: He is always confused and has no idea as to what is going on inside his head. You often wonder whether Tifa or Aeris is Cloud's real girl? Well, heck, even he doesn't really pay much attention to it because of his confusion. Much as nerds.

Tifa: She is a girl who can kick some ass, and likes to show that she can make a difference with her actions. The size of her breasts are extraordinary, even if they are pixels. And when she doesn't get something her way, she'll usually scream about it or get pissed. Much as young girls. Girls don't get the attention that they deserve in life; sports, jobs, etc. So they try to show their 'mean' side however they can. A lot of girls want bigger breasts, hence Tifa. Also, PMS.

Sorry, I thought it was you that said that....
Mmm, so I guess that wasn't part of your point.

But how did Cloud never have "self-pride"? Every time he said "I was a First-class SOLDIER", he'd do his little 'put the right foot in front of the other' pose thing that he also does when you choose "Act cool" right before the North Cave event when you talk to Tifa. (He just never was a first-class SOLDIER)

Oh! And I had one more thing to talk about--

Let me get this straight with you...
Do you think that I don't think that FF7 is flawed? (In the way that you see it as flawed)
<<....Since I think it's possible to see it as very flawed, even as much as you do, and still enjoy it.

Firstly, I never said you shouldn't enjoy it. I'm just trying to prove a point to those short-sighted fankids who constantly claim that FFVII's characters are the greatest thing ever without even realizing why they really like them and how pathetic they are to anyone who's not playing the game for some silly type of ego trip.

Second, acting cool does not equate to pride.

Second, acting cool does not equate to pride.

!...oh....
I've never thought of it that way before...
I would never act cool unless I felt that I could and was proud of it...that's why I usually felt a little insulted when people would go out and act cool even if they weren't proud....
But...mm, I suppose some people have the guts to do it even if they weren't completely sure of themselves, and it's something I should admire, rather than dislike....
=]

Mm, alright then--I think I see what you mean now about FFVII's characters....
I'm sure the fan-people will find out eventually, though--someway or another...you don't have to be so worried about them....XD
You seem so worried that you're like, shaking them, and slapping them in the face because they don't seem to be listening. << ....I used to do this sort of thing, too....(about other things, but I won't say.)

You don't need to shove it in front of their face! That might make them defensive, and when people get defensive, people say all sorts of dumb things...and it takes forever for them to listen to you....

(Oh! And you're gonna be the guy I ask if I ever need to use the "Call a Friend" lifeline in that Millionare thing....of course, I'm pretty sure I can handle it by myself...>=] I just wanted to let you know in advance! So like, I don't scare you or anything.)

Mm, alright then--I think I see what you mean now about FFVII's characters....
I'm sure the fan-people will find out eventually, though--someway or another...you don't have to be so worried about them....XD
You seem so worried that you're like, shaking them, and slapping them in the face because they don't seem to be listening. << ....I used to do this sort of thing, too....(about other things, but I won't say.)

I get what you're saying, but I'm not doing it for the same reasons you may have.

I enjoy a good debate, and since FFVII has such fervent fans, discussions with them tend to be interesting.
I make sport of the ones who aren't capable of discussing their views.

You see, I'm not actually trying to push an agenda down anyone's throat. If people want to disagree with me, that's perfectly fine and I don't begrudge them that. I just want them to do so intelligently.


You don't need to shove it in front of their face! That might make them defensive, and when people get defensive, people say all sorts of dumb things...and it takes forever for them to listen to you....

And that generally leads to big amusement value. Hence why I do it.


(Oh! And you're gonna be the guy I ask if I ever need to use the "Call a Friend" lifeline in that Millionare thing....of course, I'm pretty sure I can handle it by myself...>=] I just wanted to let you know in advance! So like, I don't scare you or anything.)

Not a good idea. I don't know the game half as well as I might seem to. It's just that I make an effort to know what I'm talking about before I say anything. In other words, I look stuff up to verify my claims.

Oh, I see....XD
>>

And...hm. I see, too, about the amusement thing....
That's something I've had trouble understanding--but I think you're the person I've been searching for!
You like to annoy people, and are very good at it, partly because you enjoy it....There are people like that at GFaqs, too, but it's really hard to talk to them because other people jump in and yell at them, and I end up being ignored...
I've always never understood why people enjoy making others seem dumb--but I find lots of people who do it...so I am now on a quest to find out why, and to understand the reasons that people would enjoy making others look bad.
People often just say that I'm too nice for my own good, or that I'm too compassionate to understand why you'd do something like this....
Hm.
But I want to try to understand everyone! And I will try to change my perspective in order to see things from the way others do....
Like, right now, I actually can't stand people who lack compassion for others and are kind of stubborn about it, but I think I need to experience in being 'non-compassionate' myself...that way, I can understand them better, and maybe I will be able to tolerate them better and things.

Alright, I've ranted enough...I'll just bother you in PMs about this.

SO!
Final Fantasy VII has decidedly mediocre delivery of its story and generally rare to medium-rare characters.
I love medium-rare! So then I like FF7. It leaves space for imagination! But it's also very unrefined, raw, and you might catch salmonella.
Some people like theirs well-done! The developers have thought everything into detail. Deep taste, hot, and safe to eat!
It's all in your preference! =]

*Edited*

Prak,just make a sig which saying "I hate Final Fantasy VII" and close this thread.

If U think I mock u or my comments are "mean-spirited" then I guess it's your problem because I didn't even think of that.U really like making-up things.
Final Fantasy VII is a stunning game, with a thrilling story. Personally it was the amazing storyline the reason I was attracted to this game in the first place. Not the chars. Not that much. They fill the picture very nicely. But without them the storyline could not exist..

I'm not a short-sighted fan-kid. I've played a lot of RPGs in my life, And as for FF7...I've been playing it for almost 9 years.U can't call it "flawless" but the gameplay, the graphics, the storyline, the chars AND the taste is leaves behind to the ppl who have played it(and yes it is really important), all these stats are highly above average, composing a magnificent, deep game.

U can find a thousand reasons why u dislike the chars and I can also find a thousand reasons why I do like them. U want to think of them as avatars?Do your thing. But all ppl can be avatars for each other. Maybe a guy in here could see some characteristics of his personality in u. Then what? U act like an avatar to him? And if u do, does this stop u from having your own self-contained independable personality?

In every FFVII we see more and more aspects of the chars' personalities.

It's just the same with all the "great" products(sometimes it's book,sometimes it's song)but when something is considered great by the majority of people some others picky complex-problematic ppl look for a needle in a haystack, make up a theory about -"no, it's not great because..." and "post" it.

THAT is pathetic!

END.

Oh man, I wish I could have seen this before the edit. I bet it was hilarious.


If U think I mock u or my comments are "mean-spirited" then I guess it's your problem because I didn't even think of that.U really like making-up things.

Your reading comprehension is pathetic. I never said you did any of that. I simply said that my reply would have been the same as Giga_Flares, except that I would have mocked you unmercifully.


Final Fantasy VII is a stunning game, with a thrilling story. Personally it was the amazing storyline the reason I was attracted to this game in the first place. Not the chars. Not that much. They fill the picture very nicely. But without them the storyline could not exist..

Read the thread, you cunt. I addressed your ignorant bullshit already.


I'm not a short-sighted fan-kid. I've played a lot of RPGs in my life, And as for FF7...I've been playing it for almost 9 years.U can't call it "flawless" but the gameplay, the graphics, the storyline, the chars AND the taste is leaves behind to the ppl who have played it(and yes it is really important), all these stats are highly above average, composing a magnificent, deep game.

You're a short-sighted fankid. You're also a cunt who seems to be incapable of offering anything worthwhile to this thread.


U can find a thousand reasons why u dislike the chars and I can also find a thousand reasons why I do like them. U want to think of them as avatars?Do your thing. But all ppl can be avatars for each other. Maybe a guy in here could see some characteristics of his personality in u. Then what? U act like an avatar to him? And if u do, does this stop u from having your own self-contained independable personality?

That was utterly retarded and had absolutely no meaning in context of the discussion. Oh wait, I expected that from you.

In every FFVII we see more and more aspects of the chars' personalities.


It's just the same with all the "great" products(sometimes it's book,sometimes it's song)but when something is considered great by the majority of people some others picky complex-problematic ppl look for a needle in a haystack, make up a theory about -"no, it's not great because..." and "post" it.

THAT is pathetic!

Have I mentioned that you're hilarious? I don't think I've ever seen someone spew so much irrelevant, ignorant bullshit in a single post.


END.

Oh no. I guess I have wasted my time in replying to this because YOU SAID IT'S THE END. haha

Oh man, I wish I could have seen this before the edit. I bet it was hilarious.


Oh, it was~

I knew I should have quoted it, and mocked him ;_;

Yes, they are shallow. The other two questions can be answered at once.

A character with depth is one that is fleshed out beyond a mere generic personality type. Such a character has quirks, strengths and flaws, both large and small. Such a character has motives that are made clear and not subject to individual interpretation. They can surprise you by acting in ways that may even seem contrary to their nature in certain situations. They take on a life of their own and drive a story forward instead of being driven by it.

Those traits were absent from the avatars in FFVII.

ok ive seen posts that have revived threads followed by pages of pisstaking and it seems to stem from the thread reviver saying something like 'yeah i agree' or 'lollz' so ill try to say something with a point that can perhaps revive or build upon this discussion instead, because i have a few things i want to say in response to what ive read. plus the following contains FF7 SPOILERS.

prak, ive read your comments regarding FF7 on this thread and i must say that i agree with some of the elements that constitute your poor view of it. they include other flaws such as controls, complicated materia, very obscure areas etc. which i noticed anyway, but also things you've opened my eyes to how the plot is confusing and seems to hit dead ends or contain bits of dialogue and events that go nowhere at times, and certain things that remain unexplained and unresolved in the end (such as the matter of holy's actual point, and its effect against meteor, and what sephiroth and jenova actually were, as well as who cloud really was in the end) as outright criticisms.

my view on that is that (at least some of) those things actually enhance the story for me because although it does indicate a rushed job in the writing process, it added to the intrigue of sifting through the material provided and trying to ascertain the real value of everything i was told and how much was bullshit, how much was relevant etc. although i did resent the way that holy's effect in the end was unknown apart from a comment from red which reflected what appeared to be happening, and i see your perspective of it being an indicator of a poorly told, rushed story. i just saw the incompleteness of the story and the apparent senselessness and confusion over certain facets and events as a means of thinking about it further and going back to try and uncover more if possible, which for me increased its logetivity, and try to logically explain it, which made it more fascinating.

as for the storyline not turning on its head, sephiroth's revelations and mind games at north crater did change my view of things as they indicated that cloud was nothing more then a clone, BRED specifically 5 years previous (selective information). maybe i wasnt paying that much attention to the dialogue and events prior to that but that was a moment that seemed to turn the story on its head for me.

however, your point about the player having to fill in gaps with the character's personality is valid - we still dont have much of a clue as to what cloud was really like as its been made clear that he actually assimilated zack's memories and created a different personality for himself, his cold and detached uncaring attitude to the shinra problem at the beginning that changes as he gets more involved in events, dictated by your choices in dialogue of course. barret is the typical gung ho mr t character, tifa's the perpetually supportive deceptively hard girl etc. the characters dont move out of character or develop largely and that is a good thing in some cases - the case of yuffie for example, which changes in other complilation media inexplicably considering her real motives for being part of the party.

however i didnt find myself liking anyone because i felt they were anything like me. i instead tried to immerse myself in the story and become the character while i was playing - which was decidely hard considering how confusing the story can be and how little we can decidely say about cloud, apart from the fact that something dodgy was certainly going on with the irregularity between his flashbacks and nibelheims current state, and the easy to relate to pasts of everyone involved that constituted great personal loss in the form of entire towns, family, friends being a simple but effective device designed to emotionally sympathise and attach in some way with them.

my main point is this - does that have to be such a bad thing? the incomplete and confusing nature of the story can be unsatisfying and seem a waste, but having been immersed in the world the game created i didnt have a problem in seeing that particular flaw as nothing more then a compromise for what were for me the stronger points of the game - the nature of shinra which made them easy to hate and relate them to soulless, leech corporations (ironically square's blatant behaviour with the franchise) and their nazi components, the mysterious and cold nature of sephiroth and the twists and revelations in the story that kept me interested and compelled me to find out more and try and uncover the rest.

in another thread i gave a post about why i liked and disliked certain characters in the game and someone dismissed me as a fanboy and rereading the post with your criticisms and with a CRITICAL as opposed to a fans eye on the game made it clear that i had posted with bias (these are certainly not the best characters or the best storyline in a computer game by a long shot, there are flaws). i just want to offer the defence that the lack of the characteristics you give in the quote (the key points being motives open to interpretation, and being driven by the story instead of driving it) are simply indicators of the mysterious and compelling nature of the story, the unexplained facets of the story driving the player to try and resolve them.

this is my defence as a fan because i started playing the game knowing nothing about final fantasy (its the only one ive played thus far - im not a big gamer) and found myself fascinated by this entire world that you're plunged into, and the mysterious nature of the story drove me on as opposed to a central character or set of characters whose greater depth compelling me further. i can make the distinction now but am still an FF7 fan, because i enjoyed it and felt that the way the game turned out was the right way, which is a personal opinion based on my experience of the game. im not going to cite popularity, awards, reviews or anything as an objective proof of this, because they're not. my point is that whatever the reason the way the story turned out (square rushing things, being too mysterious and leaving things unexplained as a possible result, as well as depth of the characters), it still worked for me and thats why i liked the characters, because they functioned well within this story and the way it is told.

perhaps that's a copout compared to a more defined and explanatory story, with deeper, more re-appraisal necessary twists and deeper, more complex characters, but then you run the risk of just spoon feeding a story, revealing everything, which allows no scope at all for interpretation or open endedness, and that can seem linear and unsatisfying in its own way; or perhaps ive lost my way and am just making excuses for the game because i personally enjoyed it so much and resent it being so convincingly taken apart. i just think the way it unfolds is fine (advent children is not fine though, that was the opportunity to be a little clearer and tie up loose ends, which it didnt)

Mm, I agree--
...When I was arguing with Prak, many times, the things he brought up as "flaws" were sometimes exactly the reason why I enjoyed the game....
He says that the game has "charisma", and that we fall into a "trap", by enjoying the game.
But at the same time, he tells me that he's not trying telling us not to enjoy the game....

As far as I'm concerned, with Prak being annoyed with the fanpeople etc., ...."trying to get us to like the game less so we wouldn't talk about it as much" is exactly what he's trying to do!
Prak--If you don't like the fans, tell it to the fans--don't go talking about the game when that wasn't where your problem was!
So if you had a problem with me enjoying a game when you don't think I should be enjoying it as much, just tell me that you don't think I should enjoy the game as much! Tell me that I should stop, for the reason that you have a problem with me! Not for the reason of "this game isn't good, etc. etc.". Even though you might believe that you have an accurate view of this work, you wouldn't reply to the fanpeople unless you were offended by them and felt you had to say something. You don't need to rationalize your reasons for being offended by me to convince me to stop, since that isn't being completely honest with yourself. It's alright to be selfish sometimes--so you don't need to try to cover it with reasoning or anything....

To me, you really are a great person. So please--! Show it more.
I hate it when people hate someone without knowing who they really are--and you make that happen a LOT.
>=(

Okay, I'm going to put this in the most clear terms possible and put an end to this once and for all:

I don't give a flying fuck how much people enjoyed the game. I'm saying there's a huge difference between quality and personal enjoyment, which is something that many FFVII fans don't understand. I have a problem with that because of that mentality's effect on the industry, which I can't be bothered to write an essay about at the moment. The only solution is to show people how they are mistaken, which means tearing object of their affection apart to show its fundamental flaws.

For example, I acknowledge that FFVII is a very mediocre game which I enjoy partly because of that mediocrity.

I understand this concept well because of all the terrible NES games I play.

For my part, I don't entirely mind that it's mediocre, because obviously there's something that connects somewhere. And I think that's what you may not entirely understand or care about, Prak. While I agree that the wild "ZOMG THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME EVER" people are generally nuts, there's something about this game that a lot of people connect with.

I win.

After seeing a bit more of this thread, though, I can tell that the usual craziness reigns.

For my part, I don't entirely mind that it's mediocre, because obviously there's something that connects somewhere. And I think that's what you may not entirely understand or care about, Prak. While I agree that the wild "ZOMG THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME EVER" people are generally nuts, there's something about this game that a lot of people connect with.

in my essay post i tried to pin down what was easy to connect to in the game and why i thought it was a good game with a good storyline. its better then most games ive played, but im well aware that it has flaws and isnt by any stretch the best game ever made. i just think its good personally and was trying to argue its merit, thats all!

There shall always be a special place in my heart for Hojo. There's just something intriguing about a middle aged mad scientist who's wife left him for a cassenova Turk and led him down that road of depravity with her shameless flirting. Jenova just had easy material to work with after Lucretia stomped all over his teeny little heart with her high heeled blue shoes.

It's ALL Vincent's fault!

in my essay post i tried to pin down what was easy to connect to in the game and why i thought it was a good game with a good storyline. its better then most games ive played, but im well aware that it has flaws and isnt by any stretch the best game ever made. i just think its good personally and was trying to argue its merit, thats all!

If you rank it above most game you've played I can only assume you've either played horrible games or played a small number of horrible games.

It's ALL Vincent's fault!
Quoted for truth.

Okay, I'm going to put this in the most clear terms possible and put an end to this once and for all:

I don't give a flying fuck how much people enjoyed the game. I'm saying there's a huge difference between quality and personal enjoyment, which is something that many FFVII fans don't understand. I have a problem with that because of that mentality's effect on the industry, which I can't be bothered to write an essay about at the moment. The only solution is to show people how they are mistaken, which means tearing object of their affection apart to show its fundamental flaws.

I think many people know the difference between those two....
And to them, what they want to ask is why quality should matter so much to them as opposed to their own personal enjoyment....

I think what you really want to show them is that their own personal, individual enjoyment actually has a larger effect on other people and the game industry than they might believe, rather than how mediocre the game is.
...since...I think that's the mistake I might have been making....
I thought that there wouldn't be too much harm in enjoying the game--since I just like it personally, and I usually try not to push it onto others too much....though I do speak in favor of the game most of the time when asked about it.
I thought it generally wouldn't do too much harm to talk about how I enjoy the game....
But...maybe......it affects more people than I might realize....
Especially with so many people doing this...

To be truthful, though...I actually wouldn't mind if they made another game as captivating and simple as FFVII was to me. It's just that...most games that have tried to copy FFVII have tried to copy the wrong things....(overblown graphics, FMVs, etc.)

willfinalfantasy7fan: If "story" is that important to you, read a freaking book. Seriously. There's plenty of them out there, and many that are "thought-provoking" for the right reasons.

willfinalfantasy7fan: If "story" is that important to you, read a freaking book. Seriously. There's plenty of them out there, and many that are "thought-provoking" for the right reasons.

But good books don't shove anything in your face; they actually make you use your imagination. Example: I treat the movies and books of Lord of the Rings as almost a different story altogether because I read the books first and developed my own perception of what all the characters looked like. The movies were good, and I enjoyed them, but not nearly to the extent I enjoyed the book.

But good books don't shove anything in your face; they actually make you use your imagination.

My point exactly. :D

BTW, I'm probably a total git for thinking this, but when I read "use your imagination," I immediately thought of a certain purple dinosaur telling me to read so I could use my imagination.

When I was 6 my dad how gave me a trout and a knife and said, "Use your imagination".

If you rank it above most game you've played I can only assume you've either played horrible games or played a small number of horrible games.

im not a big gamer. that said i enjoyed FFvii and thought it had a good storyline.

willfinalfantasy7fan: If "story" is that important to you, read a freaking book. Seriously. There's plenty of them out there, and many that are "thought-provoking" for the right reasons.

i read loads, and ive read loads with far better storylines then FFvii. however i still enjoyed the game, and thought it had a good stoyline. why are you all so amazed, pityful of me and in some cases even offended by this?

Figured I'd make a special guest appearance.

Personal enjoyment is mistaken for game quality so much, it sickens me. Especially with FFVII.

There's...something I've wanted to ask you guys who talk about "Mistaking Personal Enjoyment for Game Quality".

It seems to me that you push the fact that "Personal Enjoyment" and "Game Quality" aren't related.
So then, if a game is quality, but has no bearing on whether I would personally enjoy it, then does the "quality" matter to me...?
It seems that you ARE trying to say that it should matter to us, though! And that's why people are adamant against you, since you're asking for generosity of thought in return for nothing.

And we shouldn't be talking about this in the first place! I shouldn't be talking about this...!
We should be discussing our opinions on the game, rather than our opinions on other peoples' opinions.

There's...something I've wanted to ask you guys who talk about "Mistaking Personal Enjoyment for Game Quality".

It seems to me that you push the fact that "Personal Enjoyment" and "Game Quality" aren't related.
So then, if a game is quality, but has no bearing on whether I would personally enjoy it, then does the "quality" matter to me...?
It seems that you ARE trying to say that it should matter to us, though! And that's why people are adamant against you, since you're asking for generosity of thought in return for nothing.

And we shouldn't be talking about this in the first place! I shouldn't be talking about this...!
We should be discussing our opinions on the game, rather than our opinions on other peoples' opinions.


Look at it in terms of food. There's such thing as quality caviar but not everybody enjoys eating it.

But how many people come here and say "FF7 is my favourite game". Does that say that it is the best? It doesnt at all. They could think the game is shit for all we know yet most of them get fucked royally for saying they like it.

willfinalfantasy7fan said he enjoyed the story up there and got people telling him it was crap rather than asking maby why he liked it or hearing his reasons.

Where was it that others said it was crap?
All they said was that if story was the primary reason to play a game, you're better off reading a book than playing FF7.

It wasnt put so nicely but i guess it was a bad example on my part.

There's...something I've wanted to ask you guys who talk about "Mistaking Personal Enjoyment for Game Quality".

It seems to me that you push the fact that "Personal Enjoyment" and "Game Quality" aren't related.
So then, if a game is quality, but has no bearing on whether I would personally enjoy it, then does the "quality" matter to me...?
It seems that you ARE trying to say that it should matter to us, though! And that's why people are adamant against you, since you're asking for generosity of thought in return for nothing.

And we shouldn't be talking about this in the first place! I shouldn't be talking about this...!
We should be discussing our opinions on the game, rather than our opinions on other peoples' opinions.
I liked Mario is Missing, but no one is going to say that is one of the greatest games of all time. Personal enjoyment and game quality go hand-in-hand sometimes, but not all the time.

Oh, by the way, the whole "if you want a good story, read a book" argument never holds much water for me. I personally read quite a few books. Some of them are rather better than a lot of Final Fantasies. Some of them end up being junk, and those I sometimes give up on. Either way, if somebody wants to tell a story, I don't care what medium they choose to do it --- book, television, game, etc.

cloud cait sith vincent and red 13 what do i have in common with any of them...

You're supposed to be gone! GTFO!

Hi sain.


I liked Mario is Missing, but no one is going to say that is one of the greatest games of all time. Personal enjoyment and game quality go hand-in-hand sometimes, but not all the time.

XD
If you ever told me that "Mario is Missing is the greatest game ever", though, I wouldn't get on your back. ;-)

I think what you should be looking at is if you're going to play an RPG, then storyline in the game is a major part of it. So if you're looking for just a storyline, then yes a good book is one medium that you could choose. However, if you're looking for a good rpg, than you want to find one with a good story. I enjoyed FF7, I enjoyed the storey in FF7, I'm not going to say it was the greatest game ever, but it had a good story. Without the story, the final fantasy games aren't even worth looking at. So therefore, storyline in the video game, whether you think books have better storylines or not, is very important to the overall appeal and quality of the game.

But how many people come here and say "FF7 is my favourite game". Does that say that it is the best? It doesnt at all. They could think the game is shit for all we know yet most of them get fucked royally for saying they like it.

willfinalfantasy7fan said he enjoyed the story up there and got people telling him it was crap rather than asking maby why he liked it or hearing his reasons.

thanks.

metal gear solid, champ managers and other football games, resident evils 1,2 and 4, alien v predator 2, tekkens, gtas, halos 1 and 2, perfect dark, goldeneye, pokemon gold and now FF7. told you im not a prolific gamer.

ive already said why i thought the game, and its storyline, was good, probably on this thread somewhere. its not the best by a long shot. books ive read recently - american gods and smoke and mirrors, neil gaiman. fear and loathing in LV, hunter s. ghostwritten, david mitchell. magic toyshop, ang carter. do androids dream of electric sheep, Phil k Dick. time travellers wife, Audrey Niffernegger. all are superb novels with great storylines.

i think ive said all i can on the matter. peace

I think you've been mistaking willfinalfantasy7fan with the nutjobs that say its the greatest game of all time. All he said was he enjoyed the story and that he liked the game. I liked the game too, but we're not saying its the best ever. So get off his nuts because you probably like games that other people think are terrible too. You can't really argue opinion, it's subjective.

Thank you for that statement above, ive been flamed a thousand times for things like this, peeple just dont grow up and read btw the lines, when ff7 comes up, its another time kill someone thru wordin.

The problem is, that when people defend the game, it's rare on here that they give logical and factual reasons for believing things about it to be good. When threads such as these are made, an objective discussion is what tends to be appreciated rather than biased personal opinions.

It's not that people are flamed for liking the game, but rather refuse to think about it in an objective way.

Yeah, I started a thread somewhat to this nature a while back. As usual, eventually the idiots showed up and it faded away sooner or later.

True, people do give illogical reasons and just spout off nonsense to defend the game, but all he said was he enjoyed the story and people still went off about it. If we want objective discussion then we should go back to that instead of just going off on people.

For instance, I find the game enjoyable, although far from perfect. I like the story, the whole fantasy fiction about the old inhabitants of the earth and the many crazed people's search for their promised land.

I do not, however, enjoy the graphics, ok for their time but still, certain character and their development, the never fully realized relationships between characters, and certain things about the materia system. I like how you can level it up and equip it in and out, but I do not like how anybody can just use any materia, such as in other games where you have mages and such, and how you can only have certain amounts of materia, to a degree. Yes it adds a challenge and I appreciate that, but then nobody actually learns any magick and you can have completely new crappy leveled characters with master materia. Lastly, certain materia is useless to level up. Some of it does not get more powerful even though it is level 3 instead of 1 now.

That's objective, that's all I have for now. Might as well try and move this in sort of the right direction. I tried anyway.

I did like that anybody can use enemy skills / blue magic, if nothing else.

Yea, I wasn't saying nothing was good about. I just meant there were a few things I enjoyed about it, and a few things I thought could have been tweaked or altered a little bit to make it better.