This is it.

Forget everything you've seen before.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is how you make a superhero movie.

So this afternoon again found me sitting in the cinema watching my most-anticipated film of the year for the second time. I don't often go to the cinema at all simply because of the high ticket prices, but in this instance I've known for a very long time that I would definitely be watching Civil War as soon as it came out. So it was wonderful to be there last Thursday night sitting in the midnight screening, and then again this afternoon. What a treat this film is!

Ever since the first announcement that Civil War was entering production I was very, very excited, not just because it's practically another Avengers movie (what with most of the main Avengers cast), but mainly because the plot is so intriguing - it's not in the slightest bit predictable or cliched, which is something superhero movies are in constant danger of being. Having never read the Marvel comics myself, I didn't know the intricacies of the Civil War storyline before I saw the film, but I did know the main plot points and it sounded fascinating. Simply the idea of good guys becoming split over an important decision like the superhero registration act was interesting, because there is no clear right or wrong side to the fight. Also, it begged the question of who would join who's side of the argument and why.

Before I go any further, I think it's very important to take the following into consideration: Marvel have so far developed their Cinematic Universe in such a way that we are now very familiar with most of the characters, so much so that their emotions have a depth to them that is still quite rare in cinematic franchises. The MCU is pretty much unique in the way that Marvel have given us so much opportunity to get acquainted with these characters so far, not just from their own solo films but also the two team-up Avengers films we've had. It's because of this that we are completely tuned-in to their individual personalities, who they are, and how they react in various circumstances. This complements the already-engaging plot that the Civil War story arc has to offer, and seeing these characters we already know so well placed in such a complex situation is just a fantastic treat.

So, now for my thoughts on the film itself. Wow. Right off the bat, I'll say that this film was a lot more complex than I was expecting. The trailers were very well made, as they managed to still be incredibly engaging whilst at the same time only disclosing the bare minimum of the plot. This is a breath of fresh air with trailers today (*cough* BvS *cough*). Because of this, all I knew about the story going into the movie was that The Avengers, headed by Tony and Cap, become divided over the Sokovia Accords and end up fighting. That was it. The snippets of fight scenes that were included in the trailers looked pretty darn intense and made me wonder if there was perhaps something else that was a contributor to the division between sides that the trailers weren't telling us, and the emphasis on Bucky also made me wonder if he too had an important part to play in the division. After all, this film was being released under the title of "Captain America", so there was bound to be a lot of emphasis on the relationship between Cap and Bucky.

Turns out I was right - This is definitely a Captain America film, first and foremost. Cap and Bucky's relationship is more central to the plot of this film than that of Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Yes, there are a lot of Avengers in here too, but it still feels distinctly like a Captain America sequel. This is no doubt due in part to the fact that Civil War was directed by the same directors as The Winter Soldier. In fact, I even remember thinking from watching the first trailer alone that it already felt like a sequel to The Winter Soldier.

Having said all that, Tony Stark/Iron Man has an equally important role in this film that is very well written. One of the best things about this story is that both sides of the division are right for different reasons. Despite my leanings toward "Team Iron Man" ever since I learned about the Civil War storyline (because I do agree more with Tony's approach to the situation), I was actually very supportive of both sides at different points in the film because it had been written in such a way that you simply couldn't just agree with one side all the way through.

I cannot stress enough how well I thought the characters were written and acted, particularly Tony and Cap. It really was perfect. I also felt that Robert Downey Jr's acting this time around was particularly superb. The entire cast was brilliant, but I felt RDJ was particularly so, not just because I am a huge fan of him as an actor and his excellent portrayal of Tony Stark, but because his character goes through such mental challenges in this film and his acting was absolutely spot-on.

Which brings me to another point. As I said earlier, I was already expecting there to be something other than just the politics to really split Tony and Cap so violently. But it turns out I wasn't at all prepared for the sheer emotional depth that this real dividing issue at the end turned out to be. It's only revealed in the final act of the film, and it gave the final fight scene such gravitas and emotion that I was completely and utterly engaged. Huge props go to the Russo brothers and the writers of this film for not shying away from making it very mature and emotionally deep, and props to Marvel for not giving it away in the trailers. That final fight scene will stay in my mind for years to come as hands-down one of the best scenes in any film I have ever seen, not just because it was visually brilliant and expertly choreographed but even more so because of everything that has led up emotionally to the final conflict between these two characters.

The other stand-out scene is, of course, the airport scene. I say "of course" because that seems to be what everyone is talking about, and for good reason. Taking that many characters and managing to write and direct them all equally in a 10-minute confrontation/conflict is a very impressive achievement and it was great fun to watch. Because this isn't a case of good guys vs bad guys, but instead good guys vs friends, it has that added level of interest that you don't usually get from a superhero film. There's so much more going on in this story than simply good vs bad.

That's the other thing about this film: there was so much going on throughout that it was almost too much to take in all at once, particularly at first viewing, but only almost. It was a bit of a challenge keeping up with the various plot threads, and my second viewing was definitely enhanced by already knowing what was going on. However, not actually knowing the ending first time around was incredible as I was completely on the edge of my seat, more than I've ever been during a film before.

And now for Spider-Man. Knowing what various legal rights issues and shenanigans the character went though to finally arrive in the MCU, it was very interesting to finally see Tom Holland in action. I really liked him. I didn't love him, but I really liked him. I guess his solo film next year will be the defining test, as his role in Civil War really isn't that big. But he was very good as both Peter Parker and Spidey in what scenes he did have. Peter's chemistry with Tony is already great and I can't wait to see that developed further in Spider-Man: Homecoming. Also, Aunt May is not what you might be expecting! I'm very much looking forward to seeing the whole Spidey element of the MCU getting developed alongside all the other Avengers in future films.

I was very pleased when it was announced that Henry Jackman would be returning to score Civil War, after his wonderful score to The Winter Soldier. Not only would this mean musical continuity for the various characters that were in The Winter Soldier, but also the same tone of film, marking it very definitely as a Captain America movie. I immediately recognised a couple of themes/motifs during my first viewing, but I didn't come out of the theatre humming a new main theme. However, I did the second time and I'm now very much enjoying listening to the score outside the film. The new themes are just as good as the previous ones and Jackman has once again delivered the goods with a score that has great emotional depth, which is essentially what this film is all about. The music during the final showdown was incredible.

I could write so much more about this film, but I feel that it would be unnecessary. Just go and watch it.

There is one last thing I will mention here, but there are a few huge spoilers, hence the spoiler alert: I was surprised no one died. I wasn't at all sure who might die, but I was pretty sure that someone was going to. We were shown what appeared to be Rhodey's death in the trailer, but because of that I was doubtful that he would actually die in the film. During the final showdown between Cap and Tony, from the way it was shot and edited together, along with Jackman's epic music, and from the pure intensity of it, I became convinced that one of them was going to kill the other, possibly Tony killing Cap in his intense rage regarding Bucky and the truth about the death of his parents. So it was a surprise that by the time the credits rolled none of the main characters had died. Yes, Peggy Carter dies near the beginning of the film, but she doesn't show up in the film beforehand and doesn't really count as a main character in the same way as the other Avengers. I can't stress how relieved I am that both Cap and Tony are still alive and on good terms at the end. In summary: Captain America: Civil War was fantastic. It hit all the right notes and is now quite possibly my favourite Marvel film, and definitely one of my favourite films of all time. It is most definitely a Captain America sequel, with the same darker, more realistic tone as the previous instalment, but it is also a culmination of the gradually-rising conflict we've seen between Tony and Cap. It's a huge game-changer for the entire MCU, and the layers of character and emotion throughout are superb.

One more thing: there is a certain shot during the final showdown that is one of the best uses of slow motion in film for dramatic purposes I've ever seen. I don't think I've completely nerded out at something in a film that much ever before.

Well done, Marvel. Very, very, very well done.

Rating: 10/10

You wait and see for DAK to say it's overrated. :laugh:

You wait and see for DAK to say it's overrated. :laugh:

Oh I am. ;) You seen it yet?

Glad to see you liked it! :D I loved it too.

but doesn't Peggy count as a main character? She has her own TV show after all. I was pretty devastated when she died :(

pottyaboutpotter, you are right. That was definitely right in the feels :(

I heard rumours of Hawkeye dying now that we'd been introduced to his family. That way it would have given his death more emotional gravitas. Despite all of the talk on "this actor has this many films left on his contract, this actor this many, etc" I was also expecting RDJ to bite the bullet, in a twist on the Civil War comic book climax.

Now about what Sully said:

I'm very much surprised AND very happy that no one died. It shows what great filmmakers the Russo brothers are! No one died (except for Crossbones, Peggy and Ma & Pa Stark), but DAMN was this film dark! Great skills. At one point I did expect Wanda was going to kill Vision because what she did to him when Hawkeye came for her was damn BRUTAL! :)

Oh I am. ;) You seen it yet?

Not yet, I am kind of waiting to go next week, there's a 3-day feast where cinema is mighty cheap.

But definitely I'm looking forward to it, as I enjoyed Winter Soldier and this one looks amazing.

I Thought It Was Clear RDJ was Safe, Has He Not Signed a Contract To appear in Spider man 1 and Extended his Contract.

but doesn't Peggy count as a main character? She has her own TV show after all. I was pretty devastated when she died :(

This is true. I've edited my review accordingly. :)

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------


I Thought It Was Clear RDJ was Safe, Has He Not Signed a Contract To appear in Spider man 1 and Extended his Contract.

Exactly. It was for this reason I was sure Stark wouldn't be killed off. But the final showdown was so intense that my certainty dwindled to nothing and I simply had no idea what the end result would be. That alone is testament to how well this film was made! It made me completely doubt something I already knew was true.

I agree with everything you said, except for what you said about the score.
The film is absolutely fantastic! Winter Soldier immediately became my favorite Marvel movie, but after having seen this one twice (for now), I think I might like it even more! There's nothing I didn't like about the movie, I was completely immersed in the film from start to finish!
I'm so glad the Russos are directing Infinity Wars, because these guys know what they're doing!
Best movie of the year so far, 20/20 :)

I agree with everything you said, except for what you said about the score.
The film is absolutely fantastic! Winter Soldier immediately became my favorite Marvel movie, but after having seen this one twice (for now), I think I might like it even more! There's nothing I didn't like about the movie, I was completely immersed in the film from start to finish!
I'm so glad the Russos are directing Infinity Wars, because these guys know what they're doing!
Best movie of the year so far, 20/20 :)

I only complemented the score - does that mean you didn't like it?

I'm seeing a marathon tomorrow! So, hopefully this is worth seeing in 3D

I only complemented the score - does that mean you didn't like it?

Yeah, I think it's a pretty forgettable score.
It's not bad, but it's a very big missed opportunity IMO.
With so many characters, all I hear is new versions of Cap's theme and the Winter soldier's theme.
What about the rest of the characters? How Black Widow and Hawkeye don't have their own theme by now?
Why not use Ant Man's theme?
Also, what did Brian Tyler do to Marvel for them to stop working with him?
They even stopped using his Marvel Fanfare!
Anyway, like I said it's not bad, but it could have been so much more!
That didn't stop me from enjoying the movie though! :)

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------


I'm seeing a marathon tomorrow! So, hopefully this is worth seeing in 3D

I'm sorry to say that it isn't worth seeing in 3D, I actually found it distracting.

I'm seeing a marathon tomorrow! So, hopefully this is worth seeing in 3D

I didn't see it in 3D, not a problem.

---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------


Yeah, I think it's a pretty forgettable score.
It's not bad, but it's a very big missed opportunity IMO.
With so many characters, all I hear is new versions of Cap's theme and the Winter soldier's theme.
What about the rest of the characters? How Black Widow and Hawkeye don't have their own theme by now?
Why not use Ant Man's theme?
Also, what did Brian Tyler do to Marvel for them to stop working with him?
They even stopped using his Marvel Fanfare!
Anyway, like I said it's not bad, but it could have been so much more!
That didn't stop me from enjoying the movie though! :)

I kinda agree - but I'm so used to the lack of musical continuity with Marvel now that it doesn't hugely bother me. I don't let it bother me, put it that way! I'm just glad we had some sort of continuity by having Jackman return in the first place! So there's at least some. And his Civil War themes for the film itself are great.

Having now slept on it a bit, i do have several issues with the film. The uniqueness of an ideological conflict strong enough to rip the Avengers apart is a great setup, but the film never deliverers a satisfying payoff. The "finale" of the film is Tony admitting he'd been tricked by Zemo, and then going berzerk over the death of his parents. WHAAAAT? The question of whether Cap or Tony was right about government vs. freedom is never answered. Only that in this instance, it wasn't actually Bucky at fault. In many ways I would say, seeing as how wrong the government was on the whole matter proves Cap's position. The film however doesn't clarify. It asks far more questions than it cares to answer. This is very typical of modern film making, and certainly not unique to this film or the MCU, but never the less a disappointment. The whole Zemo character i didn't care for. His motives were the most cliched thing about the film and he felt very out of place. The second most cliched part of the film was Black Widow switching sides out of nowhere. Again, WHAAAAT? Why RIGHT then? Seemed like she said "hmm, you've fought hard Cap, i feel bad for you, here i'll go back on my word and betray my team, go me!" WHY???

Now all that being said, the positives FAR outweigh the negatives. The first 3/4th of the film are EXCELLENT in so many ways. The action, the emotion, the tension, everything worked. I thought that the way they introduced each new character into the story worked and didn't disrupt the flow of the film at all. Sure, if you remove Spiderman and Antman it would basically still be the same film, but considering they wanted to stuff in as many character's as possible, it was done well. And at the end of the day both of those character's had memorable moments so I'm glad they showed up. Black Panther was a character that in his few minutes on screen really delivered the goods. The last great thing about this film was the comic relief. For a film as DARK as this i'd never have guessed there would be so many laughs, and that they'd feel right and not out of place. A lot of Spiderman's dialogue unfortunately DID feel out of place, but it was never a big deal. Ant Man did a much better job here, with the snappy/funny lines feeling much more natural. Possibly my favorite moments from the entire film are just Sam and Bucky sitting in the car waiting for Cap. I laughed so hard my jaw hurt.

Overall:
Brilliant Setup/Tension
Excellent Action
Excellent Emotion
Great Comedic Relief
Ok Payoff

Still not sure where I rank this compared to Winter Soldier (my favorite MCU film). I probably won't be able to decide until I get a chance to see it again.

^

https://marvelupdates1.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/tumblr_nycvl0mnad1u58bayo2_5002.gif?w=474

Interesting thoughts, buddy. Not sure I agree with everything you said, but I agree it's not a perfect film.


Having now slept on it a bit, i do have several issues with the film. The uniqueness of an ideological conflict strong enough to rip the Avengers apart is a great setup, but the film never deliverers a satisfying payoff. The "finale" of the film is Tony admitting he'd been tricked by Zemo, and then going berzerk over the death of his parents. WHAAAAT?

I feel this isn't a very fair judgement - I personally felt the final act of the film was the best part, and I totally understood the characters' motivations, especially Tony. I'd most likely react the exact same way if the same thing happened to me. As a sure way to rip the Avengers apart, that was a genius idea on Zemo's part.


The question of whether Cap or Tony was right about government vs. freedom is never answered. Only that in this instance, it wasn't actually Bucky at fault. In many ways I would say, seeing as how wrong the government was on the whole matter proves Cap's position. The film however doesn't clarify. It asks far more questions than it cares to answer. This is very typical of modern film making, and certainly not unique to this film or the MCU, but never the less a disappointment.

I don't disagree with you that the film never gives a definite answer to the freedom vs government issue, but I don't see anything wrong with that. To me, it wasn't a disappointment at all - I personally don't see either side of the disagreement as right or wrong, and I thought the movie did a fantastic job presenting us with the impossibility of such a choice faced by characters in that scenario. There IS no right answer, and, to my mind, the reasons why were expertly delivered. I completely empathised with the characters' dilemma, particularly Tony.


The whole Zemo character i didn't care for. His motives were the most cliched thing about the film and he felt very out of place.

Hehe it may seem like I'm disagreeing with you about everything you said on principle, but I assure you I'm not! I actually really liked Zemo. Yes, I concede he was cliched in some respects, but in others he certainly wasn't. Look at it this way - yes, his motive was revenge, but he wasn't trying to take over the world or destroy it! That's a breath of fresh air. Also, when it's finally revealed that the phone messages he keeps listening to are old because his wife and child are dead, it made me understand him a little more.


The second most cliched part of the film was Black Widow switching sides out of nowhere. Again, WHAAAAT? Why RIGHT then? Seemed like she said "hmm, you've fought hard Cap, i feel bad for you, here i'll go back on my word and betray my team, go me!" WHY???

I do agree here - the way they did the moment she switched sides was cliched (making out like she was gonna shoot them, but instead shooting Black Panther behind them). But her motives were completely understandable. She knew to keep fighting meant someone was very likely going to get killed and that the best option was to let Cap go. Besides, we're not told, but maybe she believed what Cap told Tony at the beginning of the airport scene just before Spidey showed up?


A lot of Spiderman's dialogue unfortunately DID feel out of place...

I have to say, I do agree with you on this. Peter Parker was great, but as Spidey himself he seemed far too cocky and confident far too soon. I get that he's supposed to have had his spider powers for 6 months already, but still - it was like he'd had years of experience. I would have liked him to have been less confident and more vulnerable, especially considering his age and the fact that he'd never done anything remotely like what Tony asked him to do before in his life.


I probably won't be able to decide until I get a chance to see it again.

See it again. I can assure you it is definitely worth a second viewing - it was a lot better for me second time around.

Jeeze This Has Turned Into A Governmental Debate About A Damn Film. lol

I Disagree, Furthermore.....

http://31.media.tumblr.com/89dcb0353849aaa0851f4982aed10427/tumblr_mpdzlz4x4m1suwe37o1_500.gif

Jeeze This Has Turned Into A Governmental Debate About A Damn Film.

Governmental debate? Excuse me? More like a...

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--B1Pw11oN--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_north,h_358,q_80,w_636/fhe5xmwhn6ak0rphsai1.gif

...if you ask me. ;)

Honestly, I Did Not Like This Film, As Much As I Thought I Would. I Found It Pointless. If Zemo Had Not Exsisted The Film Would Have Been Over In Like 30Mins. Basically Setting Up One Charcter To Piss Off Another.... *Sigh*

Spider-Man "Boy" Was Okay, I Liked The Fact He Had to Be Told To Calm Down. And The Fact He Was The Superhero Virgin.

And I Liked That Ant-Man Was A CA Fan, But Not As Much Of A Fan Girl As Coulson.

Hawkeye, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Vision A Bit Pointless. Black Panther Was Cool Look Forward to His Film.

Cast Was Good As Always But The Story I Felt A Bit Meh


2/10.

2/10.

Wow, a negative response to Civil War! That's honestly the first I've heard. I guess you're right - if Zemo hadn't shown up the movie wouldn't have happened. But in a way you could say that about all of Marvel's films. The bad guy has to turn up from somewhere or there's no story! :p

Wow, a negative response to Civil War! That's honestly the first I've heard. I guess you're right - if Zemo hadn't shown up the movie wouldn't have happened. But in a way you could say that about all of Marvel's films. The bad guy has to turn up from somewhere or there's no story! :p

:this:

If I know Mr. Gold well he may end up disliking it a bit less the more he watches it.

If I know Mr. Gold well he may end up disliking it a bit less the more he watches it.

Indeed :) I'm actually adding to my review now, so stay tuned for an updated version.

Nope, I Honestly Did Not Enjoy It, I LikedSome Scenes And Charcters But Over All I Am In No Rush to Watch It Again.
I Will Get The DVD But Not In My Top 5.

Nope, I Honestly Did Not Enjoy It, I LikedSome Scenes And Charcters But Over All I Am In No Rush to Watch It Again.
I Will Get The DVD But Not In My Top 5.

I know, but you didn't enjoy Zootopia at first glance though!

Talking about Zootopia, Sulley, have you had a chance to see it? I don't recall you ever talking about it, but I do remember you also were a bit curious/interested in it.

If you have seen it and want to give your thoughts that I haven't heard; you can say them in this thread I created: http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?t=203828&highlight=

True, But I Did Not Dislike That One As Much At First As I Did This...

I know, but you didn't enjoy Zootopia at first glance though!

Talking about Zootopia, Sulley, have you had a chance to see it? I don't recall you ever talking about it, but I do remember you also were a bit curious/interested in it.

If you have seen it and want to give your thoughts that I haven't heard; you can say them in this thread I created: http://forums.ffshrine.org/showthread.php?t=203828&highlight=

Repeat viewings work magic on a movie. That can be my stupid new moto. :D

Re Zootopia ("Zootropolis"), no not yet. Don't have the money at the moment, and Civil War demanded precedence twice. :p But I do really want to see it! I might grab a late viewing next week or something.

Repeat viewings work magic on a movie. That can be my stupid new moto. :D

Re Zootopia ("Zootropolis"), no not yet. Don't have the money at the moment, and Civil War demanded precedence twice. :p But I do really want to see it! I might grab a late viewing next week or something.

Ahh, hope you like it, too! :)

Interesting thoughts, buddy. Not sure I agree with everything you said, but I agree it's not a perfect film.

I'll just clarify that although i did write a decent paragraph on some of the films faults, i still rank it as an A or A+. It may very well be my favorite MCU film thus far. So much of it was brilliant done that I can definitely deal with a few flaws. :D What i was merely doing was digging in a bit deeper as to why i dislikes several elements because it seems that everybody, check that, ALMOST everybody LOVES the film. ;)

Interesting thoughts, buddy. Not sure I agree with everything you said, but I agree it's not a perfect film.



I feel this isn't a very fair judgement - I personally felt the final act of the film was the best part, and I totally understood the characters' motivations, especially Tony. I'd most likely react the exact same way if the same thing happened to me. As a sure way to rip the Avengers apart, that was a genius idea on Zemo's part.



I don't disagree with you that the film never gives a definite answer to the freedom vs government issue, but I don't see anything wrong with that. To me, it wasn't a disappointment at all - I personally don't see either side of the disagreement as right or wrong, and I thought the movie did a fantastic job presenting us with the impossibility of such a choice faced by characters in that scenario. There IS no right answer, and, to my mind, the reasons why were expertly delivered. I completely empathised with the characters' dilemma, particularly Tony.



Hehe it may seem like I'm disagreeing with you about everything you said on principle, but I assure you I'm not! I actually really liked Zemo. Yes, I concede he was cliched in some respects, but in others he certainly wasn't. Look at it this way - yes, his motive was revenge, but he wasn't trying to take over the world or destroy it! That's a breath of fresh air. Also, when it's finally revealed that the phone messages he keeps listening to are old because his wife and child are dead, it made me understand him a little more.



I do agree here - the way they did the moment she switched sides was cliched (making out like she was gonna shoot them, but instead shooting Black Panther behind them). But her motives were completely understandable. She knew to keep fighting meant someone was very likely going to get killed and that the best option was to let Cap go. Besides, we're not told, but maybe she believed what Cap told Tony at the beginning of the airport scene just before Spidey showed up?



I have to say, I do agree with you on this. Peter Parker was great, but as Spidey himself he seemed far too cocky and confident far too soon. I get that he's supposed to have had his spider powers for 6 months already, but still - it was like he'd had years of experience. I would have liked him to have been less confident and more vulnerable, especially considering his age and the fact that he'd never done anything remotely like what Tony asked him to do before in his life.



See it again. I can assure you it is definitely worth a second viewing - it was a lot better for me second time around.

I completely agree with all of that! :)

Saw it last night. It was incredible. It may be the biggest cinematic fight geeks have been dreaming about ever since they were kids, and the Russos brought it to life intelligently and awesomely.

There were probably over a dozen characters to keep track of, but they all somehow managed to get adequate screentime, and each had at least a moment in the spotlight.

Also a plus - this movie makes Age of Ultron somewhat more worth the effort of watching. Even if the film itself was a joke, seeing its fallout indirectly lead to such a masterpiece of a plot as this almost redeemed it a little.

All the actors were excellent. RDJ presented a side of Tony we haven't quite seen, and for the first time I found myself a little shocked at Cap for his viciousness near the end. It's quite promising that these actors seem to hint that they have a lot more to offer in their characters in the future.

The film as a whole is brilliant. Ten stars, easily.

Highlights:

Sharon Carter and Black Widow teaming up against Bucky. An exciting callback to the excellent choreography of The Winter Soldier.
Tom Holland as Spider-Man. This kid is brilliant and so full of charisma. People have complained about his off-beat dialogue at the airport scene, but keep in mind this was his first big fight in a brand new costume. This is what Spidey sounds like. He's not supposed to be a whiner like in Webb's films, or a crier like in Raimi's. He's a quipping, energetic kid. It was so exciting to see so young a face fighting along and against all these legends we've been watching for the past 8 years.
THE AIRPORT SCENE. 'Nuff said!
Cap keeping that helicopter from taking off. Wow! Just think how much Cap must love Bucky in order to put himself through that.

Nitpicks:

I don't like fast-paced films, and this was definitely a fast-paced film. But each scene was so ripe with energy and action that I can easily put aside my bias.
They put Ant-Man in this movie but no Wasp? C'mon, how cool would it have been for the Wasp to make a surprise appearance? Of course, that would have just complicated things further, and they'll probably do a great job of introducing her in the next Ant-Man film.
The score. Man, what a missed opportunity. All these titans with previous musical themes coming together and the only theme I could point out was Zemo's, and maybe there was one for Black Panther. The Winter Soldier theme came back once or twice, but I didn't even hear Jackman's Cap theme until it sort of stumbled into the end credits suite. I know Marvel sucks at musical continuity, but it wasn't too late to start! It's also a shame Matt Margeson and Dominic Lewis didn't return as additional composers, leaving Jackman free to abandon the great electronics used in Winter Soldier only to develop some half-baked orchestral theme.

---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 PM ----------


The question of whether Cap or Tony was right about government vs. freedom is never answered.

If you want an answer to that, read Mark Millar's terrible, terrible comic series off of which this film is (mercifully) loosely based off of.
There's no "right answer"; Vision gave a pretty straightforward analysis of why the Accords were an excellent idea; other factors of the film gave equally good reasons as to why the Accords was a way to send the world into jeopardy.

And I'm so glad that the 'Civil War' was more than just a disagreement in politics. I'm so glad the Avengers were given a legitimate conflict to fight about.

The Russo's thought about putting The Wasp in the movie but since her powers are the same as Ant-Man's and the airport fight was a logistical nightmare already they decided to leave her for the next Ant-Man. While it would have been cool The Wasp deserves a spotlight moment and she would have gotten diluted in the Avengers' mix.

I'm glad a definitive answer to the who's right wasn't given. Both sides were right and wrong although I side with Cap. And of all the Avengers, with the exception of Thor, he's the only one who's been through a war and understands the costs.

First rule of combat: good people die.

Second rule of combat: you can't change rule one.

--reading Sulley's essay--

http://i.imgur.com/egr7m2A.gif

--reading Sulley's essay--

http://i.imgur.com/egr7m2A.gif

Dude, you can't just make a statement and not explain yourself. Granted, I did see where you were coming from on how the MCU could be considered another fancy product for Disney, even though there is plenty information to downright contradict that, even if it's just an opinion. Still, explain yourself. No one is wrong.

Dude, you can't just make a statement and not explain yourself. Granted, I did see where you were coming from on how the MCU could be considered another fancy product for Disney, even though there is plenty information to downright contradict that, even if it's just an opinion. Still, explain yourself. No one is wrong.

That will take A LOT of time, to enter deep into the details.
Generally, I didn't like the character "developments" of the movie. They are, whenever, forced and unnatural. I actually can't see all those casualties through this 4 years of Marvel movies, so all this Sokovia Accords (don't know how they're called in English) doesn't make sense. Aside the fact that they're way too late and hypocritical, considering that the government lauched an atomic missile to NY in "The Avengers"!

My thing with Marvel movies is this: the overall plots are very good, but they relies on countless inconsistencies through the movies and all the characters seems to be re-written time to time just to fit into that plot (e.g: Cap, Tony).
About Civil War in particular, I hated that it litterally avoided any great story development and emotional weight: Rhodes's death, the hibernated Winter Soldiers, the ending. Also, too many underdeveloped characters: just think about Cap and Sharon kissing.
Technically I was horrified when I saw some bad CGI, badly shot action scenes, irrilevant score (I guess Henry Jackman forgot he scored TWS...).

And so on... I have plenty of arguments.
Unfortunately, I cannot list & argue them all, not today: high-school exams :/

I actually can't see all those casualties through this 4 years of Marvel movies, so all this Sokovia Accords (don't know how they're called in English) doesn't make sense.

No offense, but seriously? :p Even in just the events of The Avengers alone, there must have been hundreds of fatalities. TWS, easily a couple thousand. AoU? No doubt several thousand. The Sokovia Accords, imo, made perfect sense and I really enjoyed the way it felt so realistic that this would be an issue that the government would have to address.


Aside the fact that they're way too late and hypocritical, considering that the government lauched an atomic missile to NY in "The Avengers"!

Geez, who ever heard of government being too late and hypocritical?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyhn95wH0d1ro91bjo1_250.gif


About Civil War in particular, I hated that it litterally avoided any great story development and emotional weight: Rhodes's death, the hibernated Winter Soldiers, the ending.

I'm kinda tempted to agree with you on this in part - I was almost wanting Rhodes to die for this reason. Someone at least. I was FULLY expecting at least one main-ish character to die. (But then maybe the fact that it was a surprise no one did die is a good thing?) However, I was very impressed how they managed to pull off the ending so well without killing off either Tony or Cap.


Also, too many underdeveloped characters: just think about Cap and Sharon kissing.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzcgdtsicq1ro91bjo1_400.gif

Haters gonna hate, but I think Cap and Sharon are damn cute.


Technically I was horrified when I saw some bad CGI

No idea what CGI was bad. I didn't notice any that stood out as bad.


Badly shot action scenes

Many scenes were very fast-paced with a LOT of movement, I agree. But I don't think that constitutes as "badly shot". That's kinda an insult to the superb filmmaking I remember watching. :p


Irrelevant score

I would have been tempted to agree with you here a several weeks ago. But on a lot of further listening, I have to say it's one of the most layered scores I've heard. Regardless of the fact there are few recurring themes from previous films, the themes that Jackman composed have been used incredibly well. It just takes time to really notice. It would have been a lot easier to notice had he used previous character themes and motifs but once you've learnt the new themes the score becomes so much better, trust me.

:this: You know an argument is lost when a person claims it's been 4 years when it's been twice that. Sulley is champ.

Wrong or not, he just gave his opinion, nothing wrong with that, really.

It's good to discuss things. I enjoy it. There is no right or wrong opinion here - it's a totally subjective subject.

I sometimes can't help but feel some complaints are more with the comic books that influence the movies than the movies themselves. When you have a universe run this long, there are bound to be inevitable quirks the stick out. For instance, the whole characters acting a bit different from movie to movie for some stems from the whole comic book thing where there are different writers being brought in to make different runs that pertain to a specific character/story and team/event stories. So what I'm trying to say here is that you somewhat have to be aware of how comic books work to better understand the films. Someone said that Age of Ultron had that feeling of an event comic combined with the tie ins of the individual characters, making for a perfect adaptation on how a comic book can be made for film.

I sometimes can't help but feel some complaints are more with the comic books that influence the movies than the movies themselves. When you have a universe run this long, there are bound to be inevitable quirks the stick out. For instance, the whole characters acting a bit different from movie to movie for some stems from the whole comic book thing where there are different writers being brought in to make different runs that pertain to a specific character/story and team/event stories. So what I'm trying to say here is that you somewhat have to be aware of how comic books work to better understand the films. Someone said that Age of Ultron had that feeling of an event comic combined with the tie ins of the individual characters, making for a perfect adaptation on how a comic book can be made for film.

Unfortunately, I was never interested in reading comic books. Now we have movies is just easier to take a two-hours run instead of reading hundreds (or thousands?) different comic books... It's way too late for me to start from the beginning.
-Basically this is the same excuse people say when you suggest them to read a great book adapted into a movie, such as LOTR... So I don't really like to say that-

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------


No offense, but seriously? :p Even in just the events of The Avengers alone, there must have been hundreds of fatalities. TWS, easily a couple thousand. AoU? No doubt several thousand. The Sokovia Accords, imo, made perfect sense and I really enjoyed the way it felt so realistic that this would be an issue that the government would have to address.

I really can't remember seeing so many fatalities in the NY battle. There could have been, but the damage was more on the buildings rather than on the people.
In TWS Cap manages to stop the Hydra-Helicarriers-killing-machines before they started shooting on the people. I mean, they didn't even fly far away the SHIELD base.
In Sokovia we see the Avengers evaquating the inhabitants on those... flying... things... you get it. We even see Wanda mind-controlling civilians to get safe.
-BTW, where is Sokovia placed? When the city falls down, it crashes into the OCEAN...-
I mean, there easily could have been many casualties. But they are not clearly shown. And, filmmakingly speaking, if you don't show them and act as if there are not, there are no casualties. You cannot tell me there are thousands of fatalities when you showed me none of them before.


(But then maybe the fact that it was a surprise no one did die is a good thing?) However, I was very impressed how they managed to pull off the ending so well without killing off either Tony or Cap.
It was highly predictable that Marvel wouldn't have killed off either Toney or Cap. I knew it from the very beginning: Marvel wouldn't dare. When was the last time Marvel did it? Coulson (inside the MCU... I know he kinda resurrected in the tv show).
DC greatly killed off Superman in BvS, and that was an incredible emotional punch to the movie.


Haters gonna hate, but I think Cap and Sharon are damn cute.
I agree: they're cute because of the Cap-Peggy backstory. But think on how much Sharon's character is developed. All we know about her is that she's called Sharon, she's Peggy's nephew (?), that she's with the good guys at SHIELD, that she's helping Cap.
That love story comes litterally out of nowhere (from the movies). Maybe it's in the comics. But, in the movies, we barely know a thing about her. I don't like underdeveloped female characters to start major love stories with main characters: that actually really weakens them as characters.


No idea what CGI was bad. I didn't notice any that stood out as bad.
Most of the time it was just ok, but Spider-Man's suit completely in CGI in every single shot of the movie? Unnecessary and (to me) not really photorealistic.
Look at this () picture: look at the musclues of the shoulders and how they are hit by light... It's clearly fake. And there was no reason on Earth for making him completely CGI! :(
Also, I didn't buy at all the half-Tony's face / half-armour shots just before Spidey's appearence.
Or maybe I got the only screen in the world with bad projector (but I don't think so).
Also, the young RDJ in the beginning! That looked horrible!


Many scenes were very fast-paced with a LOT of movement, I agree. But I don't think that constitutes as "badly shot
Yep. Lemme explain what I meant by "badly shot" but first, remember how action was shot in TWS: though the action scenes were very fast-paced and movement, you could clearly understand every move of the fighting dudes (just like Greengrass does in his Bourne movies). But in CW (the opening fights in Lagos) were way more confusing and unclearly shot.


I would have been tempted to agree with you here a several weeks ago. But on a lot of further listening, I have to say it's one of the most layered scores I've heard. Regardless of the fact there are few recurring themes from previous films, the themes that Jackman composed have been used incredibly well. It just takes time to really notice. It would have been a lot easier to notice had he used previous character themes and motifs but once you've learnt the new themes the score becomes so much better, trust me.
You might be right. To me it was a massive disappointment: still now I vividly remember the fast-peaced beats in "Fury" and in general how the music gave rythm to the action throughout all TWS.
None of that was in CW.
Maybe it's like The Force Awakens: with time I'll love that score. But the action music wasn't really that effective as I hoped it to be.

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

Also, where do you take all of your RDJ gif? They're awesome! :D

Unfortunately, I was never interested in reading comic books. Now we have movies is just easier to take a two-hours run instead of reading hundreds (or thousands?) different comic books... It's way too late for me to start from the beginning.
-Basically this is the same excuse people say when you suggest them to read a great book adapted into a movie, such as LOTR... So I don't really like to say that-

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------



I really can't remember seeing so many fatalities in the NY battle. There could have been, but the damage was more on the buildings rather than on the people.
In TWS Cap manages to stop the Hydra-Helicarriers-killing-machines before they started shooting on the people. I mean, they didn't even fly far away the SHIELD base.
In Sokovia we see the Avengers evaquating the inhabitants on those... flying... things... you get it. We even see Wanda mind-controlling civilians to get safe.
-BTW, where is Sokovia placed? When the city falls down, it crashes into the OCEAN...-
I mean, there easily could have been many casualties. But they are not clearly shown. And, filmmakingly speaking, if you don't show them and act as if there are not, there are no casualties. You cannot tell me there are thousands of fatalities when you showed me none of them before.


It was highly predictable that Marvel wouldn't have killed off either Toney or Cap. I knew it from the very beginning: Marvel wouldn't dare. When was the last time Marvel did it? Coulson (inside the MCU... I know he kinda resurrected in the tv show).
DC greatly killed off Superman in BvS, and that was an incredible emotional punch to the movie.


I agree: they're cute because of the Cap-Peggy backstory. But think on how much Sharon's character is developed. All we know about her is that she's called Sharon, she's Peggy's nephew (?), that she's with the good guys at SHIELD, that she's helping Cap.
That love story comes litterally out of nowhere (from the movies). Maybe it's in the comics. But, in the movies, we barely know a thing about her. I don't like underdeveloped female characters to start major love stories with main characters: that actually really weakens them as characters.


Most of the time it was just ok, but Spider-Man's suit completely in CGI in every single shot of the movie? Unnecessary and (to me) not really photorealistic.
Look at this () picture: look at the musclues of the shoulders and how they are hit by light... It's clearly fake. And there was no reason on Earth for making him completely CGI! :(
Also, I didn't buy at all the half-Tony's face / half-armour shots just before Spidey's appearence.
Or maybe I got the only screen in the world with bad projector (but I don't think so).
Also, the young RDJ in the beginning! That looked horrible!


Yep. Lemme explain what I meant by "badly shot" but first, remember how action was shot in TWS: though the action scenes were very fast-paced and movement, you could clearly understand every move of the fighting dudes (just like Greengrass does in his Bourne movies). But in CW (the opening fights in Lagos) were way more confusing and unclearly shot.


You might be right. To me it was a massive disappointment: still now I vividly remember the fast-peaced beats in "Fury" and in general how the music gave rythm to the action throughout all TWS.
None of that was in CW.
Maybe it's like The Force Awakens: with time I'll love that score. But the action music wasn't really that effective as I hoped it to be.

I never exactly said people should read comic books, but more that the films were written like comic books, especially now that it's a universe. This ultimately can explain some issues people have with the films, but all it did for me was prove that enough dedication can make a strong universe.

Listen sir, have you ever seen Man of Steel? By your logic, very little people died in that movie. Buildings being destroyed by implication will have people inside dying or being injured. A building simply cannot be empty realistically. This isn't Power Rangers. In Winter Soldier, even though less damage was done than intended, that didn't mean it was a clean procedure. If they say there was casualties, even if retroactively, then there was. Either show or tell.

Listen, the statement you made is very hypocritical. While yes, Superman did indeed die in BvS, it sure ain't permanent. It doesn't help he wasn't much of a character besides being mopey. Hell, in that movie alone, General Zod got resurrected into Doomsday. Basically, both universes "played it safe." It's actually the X-Men universe that pulled those punches, but because I'm the only one that cares for those, it'll just be ignored. And don't tell me "Oh, at least DC at least made the effort." Well how does one do it and go back on it? It's worse than not doing it in the first place. Lastly, it's a comic book thing that no one dies, so it shouldn't even count as a criticism anymore.

I definitely agree that Sharon Carter needed more development, especially after the promise that she had more to do in the film, even though that wasn't the case. At least the kiss led to a funny moment, but that's really it.

Spider-Man at least had the excuse that they didn't want the public to find out about the suit through set photos or leaks, so it's a one time thing. RDJ in the suit was wonky though. The younger Tony looked fantastic. So much so that I was thrown off and stared hard at the screen for errors, but I didn't see any. God bless Ant Man.

Listen, I'm not the best with identifying issues within shots, but the action I felt was well shot, even if Winter Soldier did it better. This might have to do with the fact that I'm not that sensitive to shaky cam or just bad usage of the camera. Also, it could be that the John Wick guys were involved, though I also hear the action in that is better. Basically, I could tell what was happening.

I didn't really care for the score either. Granted, I often have to listen to the scores by themselves to fully appreciate them, and the forms available might not be the best (OST). But hearing what I heard in the film. I only recognized one theme (Siberian Overture), but even then, I thought it was pretty basic cue. The big disappointment for me was the lack of a memorable Spider-Man theme, since all the either movies with him at least had a distinct theme. It doesn't help that nothing jumped out at me in Winter Soldier either. Henry Jackman is a composer I need to evaluate more closely before I give a proper opinion, since the Magneto theme from First Class is all I can think of (and even then, that's just based off a temp track from X2).

Yes, you're right :)
Especcially about Jackman and the lack of a new Spider-Man theme!

Maybe I should re-watch the entire MCU (it's been a long time since I last saw some movies)... Maybe I missed or forgot something that could slightly change some of my opinions.

It's simply that I couldn't enjoy at all the movie. Don't know if it's because of expectations or actual problems within the film...

So, since I've expressed my opinions in an almost polemic way, I'll calm down a bit...
What do you feel about Zemo killing off those frozen Winter Soldiers? Personally, I felt it as the biggest missed opportunity to create a new world menace in the entire MCU. So original, and so genious to introduce such a threat! Those guys were even more dangerous than Bucky in TWS. It would have been incredibly exciting to see them all in action and turn opside down the international political balance or to see them fight the Avengers, by group or individually. So awesome!
But... my jaw dropped when I saw those headshots. And the bad thing about it is that it doesn't add anything to Zemo's villany. :/

Yes, you're right :)
Especcially about Jackman and the lack of a new Spider-Man theme!

Maybe I should re-watch the entire MCU (it's been a long time since I last saw some movies)... Maybe I missed or forgot something that could slightly change some of my opinions.

It's simply that I couldn't enjoy at all the movie. Don't know if it's because of expectations or actual problems within the film...

So, since I've expressed my opinions in an almost polemic way, I'll calm down a bit...
What do you feel about Zemo killing off those frozen Winter Soldiers? Personally, I felt it as the biggest missed opportunity to create a new world menace in the entire MCU. So original, and so genious to introduce such a threat! Those guys were even more dangerous than Bucky in TWS. It would have been incredibly exciting to see them all in action and turn opside down the international political balance or to see them fight the Avengers, by group or individually. So awesome!
But... my jaw dropped when I saw those headshots. And the bad thing about it is that it doesn't add anything to Zemo's villany. :/

Granted, I'm pretty sure Jackman tried to have a theme, but it just didn't stick out. To have a Spider-Man theme I couldn't hum is an absolute travesty. Bring back Elfman, Zimmer, or someone that can interpret Horner well. Or just have fresh talent for it. This could be bias, but maybe Ottman?

My issue with MCU is that I haven't got the whole picture, meaning I just haven't seen all the films. I know the TV shows won't have any actual relevance, since the people running the films either don't care for them or don't know where they're at (which is unfortunate for the Netflix shows). I should marathon them, but I'm just not good at it and I'm interested in seeing stuff I've not gotten to watch or revisit (Jurassic Park, Men In Black, Harry Potter, etc). That and I have to be on stand by when Steven Universe returns. :)

It's fine for someone to not simply be feeling the film, at least the first time. It was pretty slow for the first half hour before it really started to pick up. It is a film the people admit got better on rewatch, which is why I wanted to see it again. Granted, I'm not sure if I'm gonna care for it as much, but if I watch it after marathoning the MCU, then I'll probably appreciate it better.

I honestly am glad the finale didn't go the way it did. The big problem is that it would've just ended with fights against a bunch of people that barely even got introduced. It's much more satisfying and interesting for the heroes to have at a go for more personal reasons, since we've grown with them for these past few years. Granted, that relies on whether or not you appreciated the previous films and if the motivation and character is there, which with different writers, directors, and films can be tricky, but I thought it payed off well. Had it been the Winter Soldiers, it would've been a fight for the sake of a fight, though that could possibly still be the case depending on who you ask. It also gives Zemo motivation, which can distract one from the fact that his plan relies heavily on coincidences and stuff happening. I do wish that Tony would've died, since his character has been too important for most of the stories. To have a few films where he's not around would've meant they were willing to focus on other things (which, to their credit, will still be doing). Still, I thought it was well done.

More than a year ago I said that I might need to re-watch the entire MCU from the start to get a few more things of Civil War that I might have missed along the way, especially with the latest movies.

Well, in the last one-two months I've just done that... Sit through each and every film of the Marvel Cinematic Universe starting from 2008's Iron Man. A very good way to basically "re-write" my "mental reviews" of every film, considering every aspect I love about films in general: direction, plot, characters, music, ability to craft imagery and the cinematography. And quality entertainment, of course. Since we're talking of the MCU, I also was very focus on every element that contribuited to expand each film and building bridges between the various films.

And I have to say: I was pleasantly surprised.
Both "Iron Man" and even "Iron Man 2" were better than I remembered; "The Incredible Hulk" instantly became one of the worst superhero movies I've even seen, 2011's "Thor" was simply nice with too many cheesy moments and was astonished at how good "Captain America: The First Avengers" really is (except for a few visual effects and a few cheesy moments). Joss Whedon's "The Avengers" to me stands out as the best 'collective' film of the MCU; I saw that "Iron Man 3", despide being very different (and at times disappointing) does have its strong positives; I surprisingly enjoyed "Thor:
The Dark World" (I totally loved the sci-fi /fantasy element of Asgard, but I couldn't stand the nothingness of the villain and the way he was defeated and the human characters); I totally loved 2014's "Guardians of the Galaxy" (I didn't really enjoy it at first and even second viewing). "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" proved once again to be one of the best 'individual' MCU movies; "Avengers: Age of Ultron" terribly suffers of a dull and annoying villain and IMO awful cinematography but nails it on the level of the characters. As for "Ant-Man", to me it has an incredibly lacking screenplay (especially on the villain, but not only on him) but has incredible visuals and some of the funniest moments in the entire MCU.
I even kinda liked the work each different composer did for each film. I mean, it could have been more consistent on musical continuity, but it's not imperative to do so.

Well, eventually, just the other day I arrived to watch the film I've litterally been hating for more than a year. For a number of different reasons and this thread is filled with my outbursts on various elements related to the film.
And I have to say it: "Captain America: Civil War" is a really really good film. It has, again, very strong study of the characters, a solid plot, solid direction, screenplay, performances and action scenes. I am so much relieved to feel, know and say that in all honesty.
But I inevitably found a some flaws as well... I honestly cannot match Zemo's story of how his family died and the events of Sokovia (being them out of the city and having all the major debris falled into an unspecified lake or sea). Though all his skills and abilities, I don't understand some points of his plan and the logic of some of his choices (though, most of it is remains quite valid). There are a few minor but consistent plot holes (how did Tony knew Cap & co were at that very airport? how does Cap manage to reach and free his friends from the underwater jail with no help? and a few things like that... minor but still consistent). There are a few problems with the logic of some action sequences (the airport fight and the first part of the final fight).
Also, it appears that some of the visual effects for Iron Man in the beginning of the airport sequence were sooo much problematic (here's a clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IbHZY3xU-4). I mean that if you look at Tony's neck it sort of doesn't match with the suit, and it even appears that his face is... digital? or even pasted? Really really weird, at least to my eyes. Which is really disappointing for a film of such scale and after so many years of flawless Iron Man CGI.
Also, the very airport fight to me feels tonally confused, as this video wisely said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-QhdzQo66o
The addition of Ant-Man was actually sort of called already in the "Ant-Man" finale (not sure how those scenes match chronologically, but it already teases something). The presense of Peter Parker and especially Hawkeye are very forced into the film.

Anyway, now I was almost going nit-picking :laugh:
No, seriously, I believe there are considerable flaws that keep this film being excellent. And I think it's a very good movie, and hope that Infinity War will not share similar flaws. But for the characters and action at least, I'm perfectly fine with everything the Russo bros will do.

I have to thank you for making me question my opinions on this film, I might not have been able to without you! :D