I was talking to an ff7 extremist fanboy, and man this guy was stupid.He defends FFXIII absolutely and can't even defend ff7 without throwing insults.His iq must be within the double digits.
I've seen some ff7 fans who were at least a little more open minded and intelligent than this guy, and i don't recommend you talk to this asshole because he makes ff7 fanbase look bad, and ff in general.I kept trying to make a decent conversation, but it was like trying to talk to a mentally retarded deaf idiot.If any of you ff7 fans see this guy, don't act like this, because it really makes the fans look bad.I also really tried.I thought:Maybe it was me because my memory on the game was fuzzy because i hadn't played or beaten it in years, so i replayed it and even though i enjoyed it a little more and argue against it being perfect, he still hated on me, so i knew he was beyond hope and clueless.

Seriously, you guys have a really messed up type of fanbase who separates the fanbases of games.Now i'm not saying all the other games are flawless, but the reason ff7 gets such negative reaction, is because of bad publicity from the fanboys.

The more the ff7 fanboys mindlessly praise ff7 and hate on ff6, the more it gets a bad rep, because its a vicious circle.I am ignoring him now because its not worth it.Like a bully, the more attention i give him, the power he has.I don't respect fanboys because the way they act doesn't merit respect.

Going by the title, I find definitively more insulting your use of a single person's behaviour/actions to question the intelligence of every fan.

Going by your post's content, I honestly can't tell who's the worst kind of person, between the two of you. That guy who has acted like a dick, or you waltzin' here to talk shit about him (by the way, I fail to see how we could recognize this guy and avoid him when not even a screen-name is mentioned).

At any rate: folks like that are in every fandom. If you think FFVII has it worse in regards to "separation of fans", you should probably take a look at the Resident Evil one: I'm over at CAPCOM-Unity's board and, geez, things there get amusing. Here are the 'denigrating' terms I've seen coined on that forum: character(s)~fan, story/plot~fan, mechanics~fan, action~fan, shooting~fan, the "original" survival-horror~fan gets mentioned last because he/she's ending screwed over by everyone and everything... with CAPCOM itself' taking the first place, in that regard. It doesn't matter if you try to explain your opinion in a respectful, neutral manner; for every user that discusses things civilly there are 5 ready to repeat the mantra "It's because of fans like you that Resident Evil is in a shitty state, now. You and your opinion are worthless pieces of scum."

I personally think players have the freedom to praise every game for every-goddamn-reason they want, without the need to 'defend' their position. We wouldn't see any of this crap if we all dutifully mind our own business. Discussion is healthy, yeah, my ass. Discussion is becoming another tool to act like a self-entitled asshole to someone.

Its simple:

If you love something and think its the best ever, you have to prove that its the best ever plain and simple.Why? because of evidence.The amount of fans doesn't prove anything, because a lot of people listen and watch crappy movies, and become fans of big blockbuster movies that sell more than really good indie movies.That's not to say there aren't good big budget movies, but the reason for examination is to see if things stands to time, and i really don't see how ff7 stands the test of times.It has a huge amount of issues, such as the villain being pretty lousy.I mean real villains don't turn into villains in seconds.And resident evil is nowhere near as bad as ff7 is, because ff7 is so legendary for its rabid fanbase, that people across the net started to see it and get angry.


I could show you areas if you like on forums where you have 20 fanboys defending ff7 and claiming infallibility, like the pope in the past, and that is when the word overrated comes in.When you have a game thats fanbase isn't split, and most of the fanbase agree on which games aren't as good as the original, like resident evil and suikoden, then you have a balanced fanbase.FF7's fanbase is legendary in which the actual bad ones(not the good ones, because there are some legit people out there who like ff7 but aren't fanboys) I got one guy on my email list who is a nice person who likes ff7.

And the reason why i sent this, is because those ones who are bad are giving a bad rep to every other regular fan of ff7 who just wants to enjoy the game because they are stupid idiots who take things too far.Hasn't this console war gone on enough? can we please move on?

Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums (http://home.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/111630-final-fantasy-vi-vs-final-fantasy-vii-vs-final-fantasy-viii-vs-final-fantasy-ix-vs-final-fan)

Check out that girl who says its her first game therefor the best.That is pure fallacy.I've seen this kind of message before and its 100% false.By that standard, i could say ff1 is the best game ever because its my first.Or dragon warrior 1 is the best dragon warrior because its my first.

Why is final fantasy 7 so critically acclaimed and popular? - General Discussion - Giant Bomb (http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/why-is-final-fantasy-7-so-critically-acclaimed-and-242425/)

Check out that guy who says you have to be around to enjoy it.Bullshit!! I played chrono trigger for the first time in 2007, and loved it.I also played ultima 1,2 and 4 for the first time a few years ago and enjoyed each and every one of them.Only graphic whores are going to diss old games because they are old and have inferior graphics, and they most likely will be playing newer games like FFXIII because they are stupid little kids.

I watch old movies like:Notorious the birds, seven magnificent, 7th samurai, the day the earth stood still and enjoyed them immensely, and they were before my time.The problem is:If someone is taught that all that matters is graphics and 3d effects, because then you become shallow and all you care is how well defined things are, so i don't give a rats ass if ff7 has terrible polygons, because it can still be enjoyed with its gameplay.

When did the "FF7 is overrated" brigade started? - Final Fantasy VII Message Board for PlayStation - Page 2 - GameFAQs (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/197341-final-fantasy-vii/67004426?page=1)

The reason ff7 got hate, is because its a vicious circle:You have people who are extremists who praise something, and immediately it creates people who respond to the negative enforcement.Not to say there aren't people who just plain hated the game for illogical reasons, but most of the ones i've seen are responding to the rabid fanbase.If people toned down and said instead:Its their favorite game in the series, then the negative reaction would go down.Saying something is your favorite isn't the same as saying something is the best.Look at the people who praise ff7 and then hate on ff6 ff8 and ff9.Is that logical? HELL NO!! ff9 is a really good game that is a homage to old school.In fact:Its best to not separate yourself too much from your roots, or you risk alienating your fans.Look at how futuristic FFX is and alien.There is absolutely nothing to recognize, because nothing makes sense.Even jrr tolkien has some resemblance to earth in his books, and ff7 did too, so give some fair credit to ff9 and especially ff8 even if you don't like it, because it has its good bits.

Here is another typical message to people who call ff7 overrated:Haters gonna hate.And they are just doing it because its hip.

Oh really? so you are saying that all those people who prefer ff9 or ff8 or ff7 or ff tactics are just voicing their opinions because they want to be hip? that's just stupid generalization that exists to excuse those people who put ff7 on a pedestal where they want it to stay far from criticism, because guess what:If we can't criticize something, how can square enix make better games?

Oh:I'm not picking on all fans.I know i am repeating myself, but i am only poking fun at the people who are actually fanboys and do this shit.To you fans who still enjoy ff7 and every other ff, enjoy your game.

I agree with you, Nostalgia Gamer, but I doubt many of the fanboys have learned logic or know how to formulate an argument. We all know that kids and teenagers are especially impressionable, and they tend to not be able to think about the games objectively because they are part of their childhood. There's sentimental value, and I think they get nostalgic for the good old days before the internet, before iPhones and iPods, before all the responsibility and lack of free time they have now.

To support this hypothesis, I propose a scenario wherein a teenager in contemporary society (that is, 2013) picks up Final Fantasy VII for the first time and plays it having never played it or heard of it before. Let's see: no voice acting, polygon textures, deformed androgynous characters, and short cutscenes... I personally think they'd be turned off by it. The love story is, in my opinion, weak, the random monster encounters are repetitive, and the slow level grind is just not something that many current video games have kept around. I just don't think it holds up well, certainly not enough to be considered the best game of all time. So I think that for most of the game's current fanboys, it was one of their first RPGs and they just loved it because it was different from other games at the time; it had a 3D environment, it had pretty advanced graphics for its day, it had great music, and what I think a lot of people would say was great turn-based combat.

I'll even admit that the first RPG I played back in the day, FFVIII, still holds a spot in my heart, even though you could literally tear it apart in terms of storyline. I recognize its failures, but I'd defend it inasmuch as I enjoyed being taken along for the ride, even if it is a superficial ride at times. So logically, I probably shouldn't like it (time compression makes no sense, the orphanage plot twist is retarded, and Ultimecia's plan is idiotic) but I still do. Why? Because it has sentimental, nostalgic value for me. It's the kind of feeling you get when you know that however down you get, you can always pop that game in and it'll always make you smile, even if you don't know why.

Personally, I think that FFVII is a pretty middle-of-the road game, mediocre at times but overall okay. I don't think I'd ever play it again, but I understand where people are coming from when they say they like it. Obviously, if they go overboard and say it's the best game ever, they're being ridiculous. You can't make a judgement like that unless you've literally played every game ever made. And you're right when you bring in logical fallacies. I would just ignore the fanboys; you just can't fix stupid.

FF8 has its problems you are right about that, but it did have its improvements over ff7, like the cutscene directions for the fght scenes are actually pretty good.The invasion of the garden of i believe it was trabia? and the feeling from the music worked to its advantage with everything that went on.It was just very well focused.The same goes for that scene for the test.There is nothing to misunderstand while going on that boat.

FF7 on the other hand has some scene problems.Sephiroth reading a book and becoming the villain:It doesn't work that way to make you instantly evil.Its something that happens over time.I admit that something traumatic can instantly snap you, like it did with ed gein when his mother dies, but he was messed up to begin with.You would have to develop sephiroth's past to prove he was actually evil since the beginning, and that is why kefka will always be a better villain.There is no doubt in my mind he was evil, and his actions during the entire game made it clear that there was something wrong with him.Look at how he treated the soldiers when he said he had sand in his boots and laughed and insulted them.That proves he is a psychopath and a narcissist, because he was degrading em cause he thought highly of himself.

Sephiroth not only did he not get enough scenes to prove he was evil, most of the time, jenova was taking over the scenes, making the player believe that jenova was manipulating sephiroth.

Character criticism:
I personally think barrets character is a bit racist.The way he talks makes black people seem like unintelligable and stupid.I just think its plain offensive.
Cloud strife is very overrated as well.His character leaves much to desire as a role model, because he lied and stole from zack his identity and his story, so cloud strife literally did identity theft.He was angry cause he wanted to be a soldier and ended up being a nobody, and he wanted to be a soldier so he could be tough and protect tifa.It just leaves a lot to be desired.
The rest of the characters were under developed because, unlike ff6 which gives screentime to everyone, ff7 gives screentime mostly to cloud and sephiroth, with sometimes tifa.Each character has their big scene and thats it, and you would think that with more technology, they could do slightly better.
Villains:I personally found hojo to be more villainous and have more personality than sephiroth, and shinra and rufus.Shinra is arrogant narcissistic prick who cares only about profit and power.He is your typical corporate asshole, but come to think of it, that works really well for him.Hojo on teh other hand is a creepy bastard who experimented on his own son.He on so many levels is fucked up beyond words.He is clearly a psychopath or at least a sociopath who doesn't cares only about his own success, so he is willing to sacrifice anyone for his work.That is very very messed up.
Another thing about hojo, is that anyone who injects themselves with jenova cells without knowing the repercussions, is messed up.
Relationships:
I personally found that tifa had a much better relationship with cloud than aeris, because aeris wasn't really developed that well.She had a short period alive, and didn't have a long past with cloud.Tifa dying would have a bigger impact, because he knew her all his life, or practically all his life, so its much more personal.It also has to do with synergy.In ff6, there is synergy, because of the villain, story and characters themselves.When leo dies for an example, its much more meaningful than when aeris dies, because leo was the last of the good people left in the empire in high power, and he was the only person left who could stop kefka.He was also a really good person who tried to do good as we saw.

Also olde:A lot of ff7 fans are now grown up cause its a really old game(15 years old) Some people never grow out of the stupidity of rose tinted glasses.Being in your 20's at least is an adult, and there are more than a couple in their early mid 20's by now.

You come on here criticising people's lack of intelligence, yet you cannot even put spaces in the right place. Or structure a sentence correctly.

The fact is if someone wants to think FF7 is the greatest thing in history, they're entitled to. They don't have to "prove why it is the best ever" at all, it is their opinion. You clearly have a problem with FF7, which means even if I gave a list of reasons why it is great, you would still most likely disagree. Because in your opinion, it is not great. Which is fine.

I agree with you that some people get a bit overly defensive when it comes to games, but some people are just more connected emotionally to a game than others. Being a bit more grown up I can more than recognise FF7's faults, but they don't matter to me. I still get the same enjoyment out of playing it. So who cares if other people agree?

If you hate FF7, that's fine. But don't go around saying other people have to agree with you. Having a favourite video game is not like a mathematical calculation, a lot of the time it operates outside the confines of logic and is based off emotion. No one should have to "prove" why their favourite game is their favourite.

and i really don't see how ff7 stands the test of times.It has a huge amount of issues, such as the villain being pretty lousy.I mean real villains don't turn into villains in seconds.

Sephiroth reading a book and becoming the villain:It doesn't work that way to make you instantly evil.

Okay, I was agreeing with your post until I saw this crap. This is a really common misconception among casual FF7 critics.

Sephiroth didn't just irrationally turn from hero to villain in seconds.
1. He was already an @&$hole from the start. Tifa stated that he "seemed a bit cold" and "had a foreboding about him". Insinuating that he was already prone to evil.
2. He was influenced/corrupted by Jenova's will. Being so close to her and being damn near a Jenova clone was enough to make him snap once he put the pieces together and figured things out.
3. He didn't even become evil overnight. If you pay attention to the dialogue in Clouds story, Sephiroth obsessively spent night after night in the Shin-Ra mansions basement absorbing its knowledge.
After learning enough to drive him bat$%&# crazy combined with the will of Jenova manipulating him, he become evil over the course of what I interpret was a few nights.

If you want to sling the word Fallacy around left and right, how about I point out one of yours. Maybe, idk, the fact that you condensed Sephiroths metamorphosis to evil into "Reading a book and turning evil in seconds". That's pretty f$#%in fallacious right there.

This statement alone discredits your ability for me to take your opinion seriously.

Okay, I was agreeing with your post until I saw this crap. This is a really common misconception among casual FF7 critics.

Sephiroth didn't just irrationally turn from hero to villain in seconds.
1. He was already an @&$hole from the start. Tifa stated that he "seemed a bit cold" and "had a foreboding about him". Insinuating that he was already prone to evil.
2. He was influenced/corrupted by Jenova's will. Being so close to her and being damn near a Jenova clone was enough to make him snap once he put the pieces together and figured things out.
3. He didn't even become evil overnight. If you pay attention to the dialogue in Clouds story, Sephiroth obsessively spent night after night in the Shin-Ra mansions basement absorbing its knowledge.
After learning enough to drive him bat$%&# crazy combined with the will of Jenova manipulating him, he become evil over the course of what I interpret was a few nights.

If you want to sling the word Fallacy around left and right, how about I point out one of yours. Maybe, idk, the fact that you condensed Sephiroths metamorphosis to evil into "Reading a book and turning evil in seconds". That's pretty f$#%in fallacious right there.

This statement alone discredits your ability for me to take your opinion seriously.

Oh well you got an opinion.

No i was spot on about him turning evil.The beginning when you are in midgar doesn't count, because it wasn't him, it was jenova.He actually talked about his mother and was rather calm.Remember the scene where sephiroth went with zack inside the reactor and banged on it? he was upset about it? he showed emotions.Psychopaths lack emotion, or are emotionally cut off.It takes more than 1 scene to prove you are truly evil in a movie book or even game.Killing aerith could have easily been a reaction from him from being upset, and it could have just been pure insanity.can you prove sephiroth was evil? can you prove he was more evil than x villain? you can't because there isn't development there.I saw the flashback myself

Final Fantasy VII - 020 - Cloud's Flashback with Sephiroth - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDuSxgkMXlI)

He doesn't do anything evil at all.Heck:Shinra deserved to die, because shinra was doing bad things, and hurt him.You could even argue that sephiroth thinking jenova is his mom and defending her is insanity.I would argue then that sephiroth has really bad development as a villain then because that flashback clearly doesn't show enough evidence to support that sephiroth was evil to begin with.Show me that scene with tifa telling cloud he is cold.

Also:In all that time he read those books, before that he seemed sane and good.Can you prove he was evil before that? Can you prove in the old game of ff7 that sephiroth was evil since the start? I'm not talking about crisis core here, cause that is a different game all together.If you have to use crisis core to prove anything, that means that sephiroth was badly developed, and you proved my point.

You said jenova snapped his will, so? that just means he would go insane.It doesn't prove he's evil.Its not like hojo who's actions, which actually are actually negatively impacting others, including his son.Remember:Hojo too used jenova cell.Somewhere in the game i remember saying it drove him nuts, but he already seemed nutty to me.That is development Cause=Effect.He hurt his son, and because of it, his son went insane, making him one evil bastard.The thing he did is actually probably the sickest and most evil thing imaginable.Anyone who experiments on their own children for their own benefit while in the womb of their mother, which could have serious consequences is evil and sick and needs help.You could even argue that its hojo's fault that sephiroth went insane, making hojo the villain of the game.

That said:FF7 isn't a bad game at all, its a good game.

To mrMuta:Did i hit a nerve? If you are a fanboy, leave now, because it will hurt your feelings.I have the same right to say i don't think ff7 deserves to be on a pedestal as someone is allowed to say they think ff8 is better than ff6 or 7 or they love ff9 better than any of those.Its an opinion, deal with it.What you aren't allowed, is to tell me that i cannot voice my opinions nicely and discuss them, because that is desiring favoritism for your favorite product religion etc.Its the same game that muslim fundamentalists do as apoogists saying:Hey that guy offended me by telling the truth, shut him up.You there:you are a islamaphobe.See what i mean? FF7 hypocrites want to be allowed to put ff7 on a pedestal and criticize other games, but be free from criticism.If you claim something is the best, you have to prove it.Liking something isn't a crime, but i don't support people who try to shut others up when they make an observation, and i clearly showed pages of people in my observation of bad behavior.

If you have a problem, you should be telling them off, as they are an embarrassment to the ff7 fanbase, rather than attacking me, because that is what i am attacking the most:The fanbase in this post.

Show me that scene with tifa telling cloud he is cold.

It's during the lifestream events in disc 2. When cloud revisits Nibleheim and Tifa makes a statement about Sephiroth along the lines of "In fact, I thought he was a bit cold" and then followed right up with "I felt a foreboding about him". Whenever I play through the game, I do always get the impression that Sephiroth is inherently bad. He just didn't have the right motivation or whatnot to really express it up to that point.

Btw, you're trying to ask me to prove something is evil. Boy is that a pointless straw-man fallacy if I ever read one. That's like asking me to prove that child molestation is objectively bad... it's going to come down to semantics, subjective opinion, personal beliefs, ad hominem related crap... yeah, you get it. Bad logic. The truth is, you can't prove that anything is evil, you can't really truly even define evil, just like you can't "Prove" that any act whatsoever is objectively bad because there is no authority to support it as fact unless you believe in a God or Deity who declares it bad.

But that's all the stuff of intense philosophical intellectual discussion... not enough people engage in that stuff to really even get a grasp on it. I don't expect you to.

Edit. Here is your citation sir.
1. A youtube clip of it. [The relevant part of it is towards the end of the vid].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwbcgO-ONlQ

2. The quotes pulled from it
Tifa: Five years ago... I saw the real Sephiroth for the very first time.
Tifa: So this is the great Sephiroth.
Tifa: But to tell you the truth, I thought he was very cold.
Tifa: I remember, I felt a foreboding about him.

This is plenty of insinuation that Sephiroth was predisposed and mentally capable of what would ensue later.

Trying to insult me for a personal opinion by calling me stupid? you ought to learn to post.I ought to complain to the moderators about how you are throwing insults.

I know i haven't been on this forum that long, but i have had my fair share of good and bad commentaries, and i never once insulted you personally.Your whole philosophical intellectual speech thing? i like to do that kind of thing.All it requires, is to have knowledge of what you are talking about, which i do.I finished the game and beat this scene.

Also:As i said before:Actions=consequences.If you murder and torture animals and keep doing evil acts, someone is bound to notice that you are behaving in a rather immoral fashion.FF7 doesn't show you enough of sephiroth being evil in my opinion.Sure he could seem cold, but that doesn't prove that a ,person is an evil psychopath.People were fooled by ted bundy thinking he is a nice guy, and there are assholes in this world, but once you found out about john wayne gacey killed boys after raping them and putting them in his cellar buried under dirt, you find out he is a psychopath.There isn't enough to go by.I still think sephiroth is a lousy villain.

For one, please quote/cite me where I directly insulted you at all. Less than 99% of people engage in such philosophical discussion, it was not an attack on your intelligence. You don't have to be stupid to not get a grasp on advanced level philosophy. The "Bad Logic" line was referring to something in the direct subject and not you. You're jumping to conclusions sir, calm down.

For two, thinking Sephiroth is a lousy villain is fine if that's your opinion... but it's your supporting logic for that opinion that is flawed, not the opinion itself.

You said "As i said before:Actions=consequences.If you murder and torture animals and keep doing evil acts, someone is bound to notice that you are behaving in a rather immoral fashion."
Now I'm going to have to get mildly insulting... that was one of the worst attempts at advocating Objective Morality than I've ever heard. The best argument I've ever heard for it was "God says it's bad, therefor it's bad".

To get to debunking why it's bad, let me give you an analogy. You said "someone is bound to notice that you are behaving in a rather immoral fashion"... and whoever that person is decided that what you were doing was immoral based on their own subjective opinion, while in your head, you might have had a completely justified reason for murdering whoever it was, should it be justice, revenge, to protect something such as a loved one and so on. Does that still make you an evil person? No. Not to mention that at the core, whatever anyone's judgement is, it's purely subjective because it is judgement. Judgement is something that is inherently subjective no matter how you try to slice it.

I've seen so many philosophical discussions where a very intelligent poster would advocate pedophilia. Guess what, that poster held up an argument just as well everyone else. Now do I advocate Pedophilia? No, it's just that I accept the fact that the only reason I don't is because I was raised not to and because it's my subjective opinion and judgement. Indefinite Subjectivity is a very controversial philosophy, but it's practically infallible.

Now to get to the point, it comes down to this. You don't like Sephiroth as a character because you believe he is a Motivated Evil and not an Inherent Evil.
-A Motivated Evil is something that does evil because it has a motivation to do evil and not because it has an irrational lack of will-power to control it. A good example of a Motivated Evil would be a Bank Robber. The Robber knows that what he did was bad, but he did it anyways because he was motivated by the reward of doing so.
-An Inherent or Irrational Evil is something that does evil because it is simply in its nature to do so. It has little or no rational control over what it does, lacks a functioning conscience, and has little or no remorse for what it does.

Kefka was an Inherent Evil imo while Sephiroth may or may not have been. According to you, he is not and I'm not going to argue with you on that. My argument right now is that I think him being a Motivated Evil is a crappy reason for you to cast him down as a "Lousy Villain". There are so many great villains out there that are Motivated Villains. Have you ever watched DBZ? Androids 17 and 18 were great villains and they weren't Inherent Evils, for 18 eventually became a "good guy". Vegeta~Motivated Evil vs Frieza~Inherent Evil. Jigsaw from Saw = Motivated Evil.

I rest my case.

For one, please quote/cite me where I directly insulted you at all. Less than 99% of people engage in such philosophical discussion, it was not an attack on your intelligence. You don't have to be stupid to not get a grasp on advanced level philosophy. The "Bad Logic" line was referring to something in the direct subject and not you. You're jumping to conclusions sir, calm down.

For two, thinking Sephiroth is a lousy villain is fine if that's your opinion... but it's your supporting logic for that opinion that is flawed, not the opinion itself.

You said "As i said before:Actions=consequences.If you murder and torture animals and keep doing evil acts, someone is bound to notice that you are behaving in a rather immoral fashion."
Now I'm going to have to get mildly insulting... that was one of the worst attempts at advocating Objective Morality than I've ever heard. The best argument I've ever heard for it was "God says it's bad, therefor it's bad".

To get to debunking why it's bad, let me give you an analogy. You said "someone is bound to notice that you are behaving in a rather immoral fashion"... and whoever that person is decided that what you were doing was immoral based on their own subjective opinion, while in your head, you might have had a completely justified reason for murdering whoever it was, should it be justice, revenge, to protect something such as a loved one and so on. Does that still make you an evil person? No. Not to mention that at the core, whatever anyone's judgement is, it's purely subjective because it is judgement. Judgement is something that is inherently subjective no matter how you try to slice it.

I've seen so many philosophical discussions where a very intelligent poster would advocate pedophilia. Guess what, that poster held up an argument just as well everyone else. Now do I advocate Pedophilia? No, it's just that I accept the fact that the only reason I don't is because I was raised not to and because it's my subjective opinion and judgement. Indefinite Subjectivity is a very controversial philosophy, but it's practically infallible.

Now to get to the point, it comes down to this. You don't like Sephiroth as a character because you believe he is a Motivated Evil and not an Inherent Evil.
-A Motivated Evil is something that does evil because it has a motivation to do evil and not because it has an irrational lack of will-power to control it. A good example of a Motivated Evil would be a Bank Robber. The Robber knows that what he did was bad, but he did it anyways because he was motivated by the reward of doing so.
-An Inherent or Irrational Evil is something that does evil because it is simply in its nature to do so. It has little or no rational control over what it does, lacks a functioning conscience, and has little or no remorse for what it does.

Kefka was an Inherent Evil imo while Sephiroth may or may not have been. According to you, he is not and I'm not going to argue with you on that. My argument right now is that I think him being a Motivated Evil is a crappy reason for you to cast him down as a "Lousy Villain". There are so many great villains out there that are Motivated Villains. Have you ever watched DBZ? Androids 17 and 18 were great villains and they weren't Inherent Evils, for 18 eventually became a "good guy". Vegeta~Motivated Evil vs Frieza~Inherent Evil. Jigsaw from Saw = Motivated Evil.

I rest my case.



But that's all the stuff of intense philosophical intellectual discussion... not enough people engage in that stuff to really even get a grasp on it. I don't expect you to.
Sounds like you are calling me stupid here.

You come on here criticising people's lack of intelligence, yet you cannot even put spaces in the right place. Or structure a sentence correctly.
First sentence that comes out of your mouth is an attack on me

The fact is if someone wants to think FF7 is the greatest thing in history, they're entitled to. They don't have to "prove why it is the best ever" at all, it is their opinion
Another aggressive but not personal attack but still an aggressive behavior.Why are you so angry about someone elses personal opinion? Did i murder your mother or something? The way you put it makes like i go murdering babies at night to sacrifice to some evil god as an attack on all ff7 fans.

If you hate FF7, that's fine. But don't go around saying other people have to agree with you. Having a favourite video game is not like a mathematical calculation, a lot of the time it operates outside the confines of logic and is based off emotion. No one should have to "prove" why their favourite game is their favourite.

There are some people out there who act out of emotion rather than logic, as you are at the moment.People can be rather irrational as spock said in star trek when making more emotional than intellectual responses.The important thing is to control both at the same time and be in between.Do you know how i know you are a fanboy? Because you posted an aggressive post more than any other person here to attack me.If you had been acting logical, you would have taken a deep breath, and thought out what i was saying and read what i posted.

Btw, you're trying to ask me to prove something is evil. Boy is that a pointless straw-man fallacy if I ever read one. That's like asking me to prove that child molestation is objectively bad... it's going to come down to semantics, subjective opinion, personal beliefs, ad hominem related crap... yeah, you get it. Bad logic. The truth is, you can't prove that anything is evil, you can't really truly even define evil, just like you can't "Prove" that any act whatsoever is

We aren't talking about beliefs, but actual concrete proof.I don't care what your belief is, because you aren't going to convince me without evidence.On the other hand:A person's actions may dictate the kind of person they are.Words are also actions, as words can be used to hurt someone.Let's take for an example narcissism:You know how i know one of the things that makes a true narcissist? Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) : Traits discussed (http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html) A person who always wants to be admired, and also can't stand others being put in the light.A person who acts in what is categorized as a narcissist, is probably a narcissist if he passes all the checks.The same can be said with psychopaths.A psychopath might not necessarily be a serial killer, but there is more than just being cold.Example:Lack of remorse, lying cheating for self benefit, being glib(Psychopaths - Characteristics of the Psychopathic Personality (http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/psychopaths.htm)) or american psycho.Puts on a smile but its false.Sephiroth does none of that, unless the story he told was an attempt at being glib.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsVJ8p1UPc8 ted bundy example of being charismatic and false.

See what i mean? Sephiroth only really murdered after reading some books, and that isn't really enough to say someone is truly evil.We didn't see him murder before that, because everything that happened took place in the present, and it wasn't even him, it was jenova.Overall:he killed aeris and burned an entire village.

Kefka constantly proved he was really evil, like:He tried to burn figaro.He was threatening because sure he may be incompetent, but he tried to burn it down and actually was threatening figaro.
He put down his soldiers:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgOOiMySRwhttps and laughs at them.That isn't nice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RWZ0yU18Ww He attacks thamasa and destroys it and kills the soldiers for his own selfish cause.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS7uvLkZGE He throws away espers like they are garbage and treats them like shit.Skip to 4:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSrZGHtwNjU Kefka puts on the slave crown on terra and makes her kill soldiers for his own amusement.This proves he cares nothing for others,proving he is a psychopath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95N6jEZ6XA FF9 Queen brahne destroys cleyra with odin, proving she is willing to do anything to get what she wants, or that entertains her.Clearly she is evil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHo6zJAxv4 Kuja kills queen brahne He also shows narcissistic personality qualities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPxIrqZhqTk Hojo talks about injecting sephiroth with the cells,proving he is one sick individual
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkn9ynPZFFM He is creepy and using zack for his experiments.

Clearly hojo is the winner here of more evil than sephiroth.

Sounds like you are calling me stupid here.
Didn't I just spend an entire paragraph explaining that it wasn't? You're really one step closer to me actually wanting to call you stupid now.

Did not even read my last post beyond the first paragraph? You addressed none of it.... or are you ignoring it because you cannot address it properly?


Now to get to the point, it comes down to this. You don't like Sephiroth as a character because you believe he is a Motivated Evil and not an Inherent Evil.

Kefka was an Inherent Evil imo while Sephiroth may or may not have been. According to you, he is not and I'm not going to argue with you on that. My argument right now is that I think him being a Motivated Evil is a crappy reason for you to cast him down as a "Lousy Villain".
Please, at the VERY least, address this... otherwise, you're just Cherry Picking, which is just another fallacy added to your long list of fallacies used already.

I mean, if you want me to put it in layman's terms, I'd say "So Sephiroth isn't what you define as Truly Evil? What's your point? So what? That doesn't by any standard make him a bad villain, as there are plenty of other great villains that share the same thing in common [Refer to my villain examples from earlier]"

I repeat, saying Sephiroth is a bad villain for this reason is like saying you think Vegeta is a bad villain while Freiza was a good one. [While I would kindly disagree, since I happen to think Vegeta was the most interesting and profound character of the entire DBZ series].


You come on here criticising people's lack of intelligence, yet you cannot even put spaces in the right place. Or structure a sentence correctly.
He does have a point here. This may be close to an Ad Hominem, but it's sort of relevant to the topic, so it's not. Just the fact that your grammar is so sloppy does speak volumes for where you stand intellectually.

You can get offended and chalk that up to me calling you stupid or using an Ad Hominem all you want, it's not going to make that statement any less true or relevant here.

You tried to sling the word fallacy at another user then proceeded to use more fallacies in your participation in this thread than all of us combined. Because of that, I have absolutely no reason to respect you or your opinion at all. People are attacking you because you're invading the topic with nothing but biased fallacious logic and no one puts up with that crap.

Truth is:I don't think sephiroth is evil at all. and the problem is:He doesn't motivate me to kill him.The main issue is:If sephiroth isn't put as a villain, then who is going to destroy the world? You could put jenova, but that would be a rip off of chrono trigger, and jenova by itself isn't interesting, so i'm not going to deny you need a villain in ff7.The other issue is that do you remember when sephiroth goes to jenova and has his hands in the air and is ignoring cloud? Final Fantasy 7 - Cutscene#03 - Sephiroth's Revelation - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPK6hVeKbAA) He comes off as pure insane rather than evil.The way he ignores cloud and destroys the town? more like a fanatical crazy person than truly evil.He talks about his plans and it comes off pure insane, and the way he believes it.

As for motivating from having an evil villain:I think you have to combine both an interesting villain, and one that truly makes you interested in wanting him to die at the same time.The problem isn't that sephiroth isn't interesting, but rather that he feels like a victim.
If i was sephiroth and read a book and went inside the reactor, i'd swear revenge too.At the same time, you need to build up the villain somehow to make you want to kill him.Lets take heroes for en example as a show:The character starts off desiring power because he is normal, and starts killing people for their powers right? But it also builds up the villains backstory as well by revealing that he is afraid of dying alone.You have a character who is constantly developed because he appears often, and in the first 10 episodes is mysterious.Eventually though, you have to start revealing more, or the player won't care.You also have to execute in the right moment to give the right length of development for your villain or hero, so you care.The introduction of sephiroth was really well done actually.He is shrouded in mystery, and you see a big trail of blood.The characters clearly know whats going on and that adds a lot, but then the flashback scene happens, and we see more development, and that is when i think things start to fall apart.

The thing about kefka is :he is simple, and could have been more developed, but it worked for its time.I also like developed characters, but i want a good explanation on why i should consider them evil, wether it be wealth power etc, so i am very motivated to killing, and that is what i mean.I want to know from start to finish which puppies he kicked, which person he ripped off and murdered for his own benefit, because having a clear history of your villain gives details as to why i should hate them.Without a clear motive, you got nothing.Take for an example emperor palomecia in ff2:He desires power, and is willing to kill for it.He started wars and killed a prince and destroyed villages.Knowing these things tells me something:he is willing to do anything for power, even if it means murdering, but such a simple plot wouldn't work too well now i think.Back in the 90's, a lot of ideas in rpgs were interesting, but they have been done to death by now, and you need some new elements to keep villains and heroes fresh.A simple:I am a hero going to save the world won't be very interesting, which is something se at least tries to keep interesting.Cloud was different, and that isn't a bad thing.

How you execute a villain is important.A villain gives you a reason to keep fighting him in an rpg, unless its like ultima 4 where you are aiming for perfection in virtues, but that is another story

Most important things in an rpg:The heroes, the villain/s the story and the plot, and of course gameplay.Secondary:The music and the graphics.I personally feel the ff series is more about the story than the gameplay at times, because it really pushes it as its selling point.

One of the biggest downers on sephiroth, is he is oversold and like ganon, the fight between himself and cloud has been spread too far, and talked about too much.He has become exposed so much, that the shroud and mystery is lesser in these times, and the kind of exposure he gains, is the kind of being worshiped like a god, as well as cloud.I

There is a reason i don't talk or play much of ff6 anymore you know.It is because i know it to death, and there is nothing to say.Right now, i'd rather play new games that i don't know, or finish old games i never beat as a kid.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how to debate at all?

It's like; I could argue that bananas are good and you could argue that they're not, as they're yellow and because yellow is a color you don't like. I'd then point out that its color is irrelevant to its flavor, then you would go on some tirade about why you hate the color yellow to keep regurgitating the same point instead of acknowledging my rebuttals and providing your own.

That's what you're doing here. I said that you hating on Sephiroth for the mere reason that his evil deeds are motivated and not inherent was crappy: and you responded by shoving this wall of text down my throat about how you're not motivated to kill him because you don't think he's evil enough for you.

Regardless, I still think it's a retarded reason to not like him and I think that hating bananas for being yellow is retarded in the same way too.

I also think that your issue also lies in the fact that you don't like Cloud either. I say that because anyone who connects to the character Cloud on a personal level has plenty of motivation to want to kill Sephiroth. Cloud was in love with Aeris and Sephiroth took that away from him in the worst way right in front of his very eyes. Sephiroth burnt down his home town in front of his eyes. Sephiroth attempted to and succeeded in summoning a colossal meteor to crash into earth and destroy everything he's ever known for his own selfish gain. If that isn't motivation to want to kill him, idk what is... so obviously you have no empathy whatsoever for Clouds cause, the party's cause, or the entire FF7 world itself.

Btw... a proper debate goes
1. Debater A: Premise
2. Debater B: Response
3. Debater A: Rebuttal [+Supporting Premise/s]
4. Debater B Rebuttal
~Repeat 3 & 4 until: 5. Conclusion

Our debate went more like
1. Debater A: Premise
2. Debater B: Response
3. Debater A: 2nd Premise [Supporting]
4. Debater B Response to Premise 1
5. Debater A: 2nd Premise repeat
6. Debater B: Rebuttal to Premises 1 and 2
7. Debater A: 3rd Premise [Supporting]

You see wtf you're doing here? You keep introducing new supporting premises before you even provide a rebuttal to anything I've said. It's okay to provide a new supporting premise but only if you provide a rebuttal first.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how to debate at all?

It's like; I could argue that bananas are good and you could argue that they're not, as they're yellow and because yellow is a color you don't like. I'd then point out that its color is irrelevant to its flavor, then you would go on some tirade about why you hate the color yellow to keep regurgitating the same point instead of acknowledging my rebuttals and providing your own.

That's what you're doing here. I said that you hating on Sephiroth for the mere reason that his evil deeds are motivated and not inherent was crappy: and you responded by shoving this wall of text down my throat about how you're not motivated to kill him because you don't think he's evil enough for you.

Regardless, I still think it's a retarded reason to not like him and I think that hating bananas for being yellow is retarded in the same way too.

I also think that your issue also lies in the fact that you don't like Cloud either. I say that because anyone who connects to the character Cloud on a personal level has plenty of motivation to want to kill Sephiroth. Cloud was in love with Aeris and Sephiroth took that away from him in the worst way right in front of his very eyes. Sephiroth burnt down his home town in front of his eyes. Sephiroth attempted to and succeeded in summoning a colossal meteor to crash into earth and destroy everything he's ever known for his own selfish gain. If that isn't motivation to want to kill him, idk what is... so obviously you have no empathy whatsoever for Clouds cause, the party's cause, or the entire FF7 world itself.

Btw... a proper debate goes
1. Debater A: Premise
2. Debater B: Response
3. Debater A: Rebuttal [+Supporting Premise/s]
4. Debater B Rebuttal
~Repeat 3 & 4 until: 5. Conclusion

Our debate went more like
1. Debater A: Premise
2. Debater B: Response
3. Debater A: 2nd Premise [Supporting]
4. Debater B Response to Premise 1
5. Debater A: 2nd Premise repeat
6. Debater B: Rebuttal to Premises 1 and 2
7. Debater A: 3rd Premise [Supporting]

You see wtf you're doing here? You keep introducing new supporting premises before you even provide a rebuttal to anything I've said. It's okay to provide a new supporting premise but only if you provide a rebuttal first.

You asked me to answer you on the sephiroth thing of must be evil to be a good villain,and i answered.You said this to me:

Kefka was an Inherent Evil imo while Sephiroth may or may not have been. According to you, he is not and I'm not going to argue with you on that. My argument right now is that I think him being a Motivated Evil is a crappy reason for you to cast him down as a "Lousy Villain".

The problem is:Sephiroth doesn't give a clear idea of if he was evil from the start.This vagueness is a flaw in character design, and a reason why he is overrated.You keep jumping to the same conclusion:Being just evil is not enough, you need a backstory.
Part of the back story is explaining why the villain is evil, and why you should hate him.Without that, the villain doesn't hold as strong.

Second:I actually relate far better with ff5 characters than i do with cloud.Thing is:cloud is a poser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVcExHHR3yQ This guy answers my thought on cloud.Cloud is a poser, he isn't real in the game.He seems rather arrogant about being soldier first class and is a liar.He stole everything from zach.He is fake.

Final Fantasy VII - Zack's Death (Original) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_SgvAb8W9M) In this cutscene, we find out that cloud stole the idea of working as a mercenary, and even took zack's sword and identity.If he were in the real world, he would be behind bars for identity theft, and it is this very reason that i don't respect cloud.He just doesn't seem like a noble good person for doing these acts.Sure he admits later he does it, but he still did it.I was never in the army, and i think cloud's type of character is hard to relate to.His whole attitude just is a huge turn off and seems like a gigantic asshole for no reason at all.

The other reason i dislike cloud and sephiroth, is because of the fanboys and fangirls fangasming over both of them.The fanbase is beyond retarded at moments, and it becomes very annoying.

You cannot change my mind on ff7.I don't think neither cloud or sephiroth would win awards as characters, and both are very very overrated behind master chief and that guy from gears of war(marcus pheonix) I found it over the top in 1997, and i think its worse now because ff7 hasn't aged well.It has flaws in how the story is explained, and had a terrible ending in my opinion and needed sequels and prequels in order to explain what was unexplained, because it was so poorly explained, or maybe it was left like that to milk it as a series.

Good game, but seriously overrated.Whenever someone mentions an overrated game in the ff series, ff7 comes up as the first one.You know why? because of such a large fanbase, you also get a lot of idiots in between who make the more agreeable fans in the ff7 fanbase look bad.Its like any sports team where you might be a fan of something or not, and there is always some idiot who overreacts and starts a fight because someone said something negative about their team.

You asked me to answer you on the sephiroth thing of must be evil to be a good villain,and i answered.You said this to me:

The problem is:Sephiroth doesn't give a clear idea of if he was evil from the start.This vagueness is a flaw in character design, and a reason why he is overrated.You keep jumping to the same conclusion:Being just evil is not enough, you need a backstory.
Part of the back story is explaining why the villain is evil, and why you should hate him.Without that, the villain doesn't hold as strong.


...and my point is, why is that such a big deal? I love Sephiroth. interpreting Sephiroth's character is like reading a book or good poem, his character opens up enough to give you your own idea of him. He is whatever you think he is. That's why I wont argue with you on whether or not he's truly evil or not, because that's part of what you [The reader] interpret for yourself. The reason you don't like him is because of the way you choose to perceive him.

My perception of Sephiroth leads me to think he's one of my favorite game characters of all time. Back to my analogy of Sephiroth and a good book. Lots of authors leave out details and back-stories on purpose to allow you, the reader, to interpret the character however you want it to be. It enhances the book in a way that you sort of have some creative control. For instance, I really loved reading the Harry Potter series... but I didn't care for the movies because half of the characters were not even close to how I interpreted or visualized them. (Snape is the only character they nailed imo). In fact, I didn't care for Advent Children either. Cloud was too quiet and stout. Even by the end of FF7, Cloud is still Cloud, and he was not portrayed correctly in that movie imo... at least by my interpretation. Cloud being such a detestable main character is actually what makes him a good character in the end too.

There is no rule in literature that says that a main character has to be someone you can relate to or even like, they only need to interesting and Cloud was just that.
There is no rule in literature that says that a villain has to be 100% detestable either.

I still don't understand why Sephiroth not being purely evil or fully explained makes him a bad character.
1. His appearance is menacing. His long masumune sword and long hair is unique and symbolizes his eminence. His attire is black & white symbolizing his ties with both good and evil.
2. His acts of burning down an entire city, taking on the body of Jenova, and attempting to obliterate the planet for his own gain are enough for me to want him dead.
3. How he came to be [Hojo injecting his unborn child with Jenova Cells] and how he came to "evil" is plenty of back-story for me.
4. How Sephiroth speaks in riddles and shows so much intensity and meaning behind every line he speaks makes him an incredible character. He reminds me a lot of Hannibal Lecter. The character becomes so interesting and respectable simply by being given a superior dialogue and demeanor.

I mean, what else do you want? What about his back-story do you wish to be more in depth? If you're referring to whatever he did between his birth and the events of FF7, those details are irrelevant and lend nothing to the present plot. They aren't there for the same reason that the Lord of the Rings movies did not include Tom Bombadil. He was irrelevant.

You can not like him for that reason I suppose... and believe it or not I do sympathize with your opinion that FF7 is full of retarded fanboys, but EVERY game has those, FF7 just has a lot of them. However, in my personal opinion, I think FF7 is still one of the top 10 best games of all time. Diablo II being #1. Sephiroth is still one of my favorite villains.

FF7 is not overrated, it deserves to be up there as a "Greatest"... its fans are just f%$#ing retarded half of the time. Why are you letting the fanbase affect your opinion on the game itself? That's bull$%#@ if you ask me.

Btw:

You don't like Sephiroth as a character because you believe he is a Motivated Evil and not an Inherent Evil.
You stepped all around it, but never directly addressed this point.

Cars, sports, tablets, operating systems, consoles, other games, etc. have plenty of people like this. I wouldn't single out FF7 fanboys over this. I am not that much of a die hard of FF7 but the game being overrated is just as much of an opinion as "FF7 is the best game ever made."

Old thread...

So why revive it then? At least if you had made a constructive post I would have let it be (even though this thread was in danger of becoming a flame war), but necroposting to point out it's a necropost? Back to the grave this thread goes...