Do You Think That Ultimica is Rinoa?

I was talking with my freind when he said that he read on site that rinoa could be ultimica !!!
The reason is the place where the castle was ... that place is where rinoa and squall promised to met when they lose each other ...

but rinoa as sorceress have long age more than squall and the other and can live for long time ... cause of this surceress thing ... so it have long time to live only her self after squall and other die ... live alone ...
also do u remember squall ring ... that ring was given to squall be Edea who took it from ultimica that return to the past ... and squall give to rinoa ...
that ring have GF inside it ... sleeping after he lost his HP on the future battle ... anyway that ring was given to rinoa and when squall and the other die ...
the GF a wake ... u remeber that the GF have effect on the mind ... that the person who use it start losing his memory .. and that what happen to rinoa .. she possese the strong power of the two strongest sorceress Edea and Adel
but the only thing that she remember that there is person she had to wait there on edea's house ... and that where she built her castle .... but she wait so long time ... and then she start playing in the past for unknown reason to her ...

so i think that rinoa and ultimica are the same person , so what do u think ?

Does any one have any coments?!

My comment is...

I think that this double-post was done by the same person

Unless you have something usefull to say, don't bother. Also it's not a real double post as you'd see it since there is a day's difference.

Well, I'll provide the first useful post on here then I guess.

After reading that post, and all the information about Rinoa and Ultimecia, I really don't think that they are the same person. If this were true, why wasn't it added in the game as a twist? Do you realize what this could have done to the game if Squall spent all that time with Rinoa, and only later to find out that he has holding Ultimecia in his arms and saved her from space as well?

That would be an incredible twist to the game!

What i ment that Ultimica is Rinoa But she had grown up and because she is sorceress she never dies and the others because they get old they died but rinoa stay alone because she is a sorceress she never dies...and at the time running with gravier ring in his finger (a powerful GF inside it) she starts to lose her memory. like i said before.read the first post and you will under stand what i mean...

I have trouble reading your first post. Can't you just attempt to spell so people can read it easily? o_o
Also, don't double post.



The message of FF8 is sweet and short "Dare to love".
In the beginning Squall is afraid to grow attached to someone, to love someone, because he is afraid that he will one day lose this person, and is not ready to take this pain.
Rinoa, however, teaches him that he should love anyway. Some people think that Rinoa will live forever and see Squall die, and go crazy because of this and become Ultemecia with her wish to compress time. But I think that's a flaw. Rinoa acting like this would destroy the message of the game. Rinoa is the positive thinking one who teaches Squall not to be afraid to love, and not to be afraid to lose.

Whether or not sorceresses age is another thing that I don't consider clear. Certainly, Edea looked youthful, but do we know her real age? Cid is her husband, but that doesn't mean they have to have the same age. There's no real proof that sorceresses do not age, or did I miss it?

When you are to name Squall's ring (Griever), he explains that he thinks of Griever as the most powerful being ever. It's his imagination, his ideal of strength.
Before battling Griever, Ultemicia asks them what they think is the ultimate power, and of course Griever appears, because to Squall he has the ultimate power.
It's like the final battle of Ghostbusters, with the Marshmellow Man. Well, close anyway.
This Griever business holds no indication whatsoever that Rinoa might be Ulty...

Originally posted by Misao
I have trouble reading your first post. Can't you just attempt to spell so people can read it easily? o_o
Also, don't double post.



First Thing I didn't understand what you mean?? If you mean that the grammer isn't good enough...That cause my English isn't good like you...Cause its not my formar language...

2nd Thing I Double the post cause i post my thread in a bad time so many people didn't read it.

and thanks for posting.

This forum isn't very active, so even if a day passes without anyone answering to your topic, that doesn't mean you have to double post... ^^


English is my third language.

Originally posted by Farisfantasy
Does any one have any coments?!

i do...uv gotta point she might be... but Ultimica is ugly and rinoa is pretty, so i say 50/50


Originally posted by cloudyangel23


i do...uv gotta point she might be... but Ultimica is ugly and rinoa is pretty, so i say 50/50 ONION KID?!!!

Originally posted by cloudyangel23


i do...uv gotta point she might be... but Ultimica is ugly and rinoa is pretty, so i say 50/50

ONION KID?!!!

Look Do You Remmeber when they fight adel and after that they goes to the future...The Cut sence shows rinoa's forgitten every thing and the final face apperas ultimica face.

Originally posted by Farisfantasy


Look Do You Remmeber when they fight adel and after that they goes to the future...The Cut sence shows rinoa's forgitten every thing and the final face apperas ultimica face.

yeah, now i'm more on your side. but she change alot in looks. i wouldn't blame squall for not reconizing though.

I really dun think so.

1) Actually, there's no proof that the sorceresses age differently than humans do. It was never said in the game. (as Misao said :) Hey I heard you're a buddy of Blitz *waves*)

2) Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa.

3) Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time. So refer to back to no. 1 and try to see if Rinoa woould still be alive ^_^ hehe.

So really, how Ultimecia got Greiver thing. maybe they got Greiver out of the ring or something then Ultimecia captured him. Or maybe since it's been a very long time Squall's ring might have been lost. Or Ultimecia could be a decendant of Squall and Rinoa and you know, the passing the ring on thing? (but it really isn't THAT possible, I mean come on, Ultimecia looks nothing like Squall or Rinoa)

Originally posted by Shenny
I really dun think so.

1) Actually, there's no proof that the sorceresses age differently than humans do. It was never said in the game. (as Misao said :) Hey I heard you're a buddy of Blitz *waves*)

2) Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa.

3) Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time. So refer to back to no. 1 and try to see if Rinoa woould still be alive ^_^ hehe.

So really, how Ultimecia got Greiver thing. maybe they got Greiver out of the ring or something then Ultimecia captured him. Or maybe since it's been a very long time Squall's ring might have been lost. Or Ultimecia could be a decendant of Squall and Rinoa and you know, the passing the ring on thing? (but it really isn't THAT possible, I mean come on, Ultimecia looks nothing like Squall or Rinoa)


Originally posted by Shenny
I really dun think so.

1) Actually, there's no proof that the sorceresses age differently than humans do. It was never said in the game. (as Misao said :) Hey I heard you're a buddy of Blitz *waves*)

2) Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa.

3) Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time. So refer to back to no. 1 and try to see if Rinoa woould still be alive ^_^ hehe.

So really, how Ultimecia got Greiver thing. maybe they got Greiver out of the ring or something then Ultimecia captured him. Or maybe since it's been a very long time Squall's ring might have been lost. Or Ultimecia could be a decendant of Squall and Rinoa and you know, the passing the ring on thing? (but it really isn't THAT possible, I mean come on, Ultimecia looks nothing like Squall or Rinoa)

true, but ultimica had the lion gf squall had and etc.

Originally posted by Shenny
I really dun think so.

1) Actually, there's no proof that the sorceresses age differently than humans do. It was never said in the game. (as Misao said :) Hey I heard you're a buddy of Blitz *waves*)

2) Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa.

3) Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time. So refer to back to no. 1 and try to see if Rinoa woould still be alive ^_^ hehe.

So really, how Ultimecia got Greiver thing. maybe they got Greiver out of the ring or something then Ultimecia captured him. Or maybe since it's been a very long time Squall's ring might have been lost. Or Ultimecia could be a decendant of Squall and Rinoa and you know, the passing the ring on thing? (but it really isn't THAT possible, I mean come on, Ultimecia looks nothing like Squall or Rinoa)
When you said( Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time)...yes ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at ultimecia's time...cause, like i said before rinoa is a sorceress so she lives too long or maybe for eternty so of cource every one must dies...and you said( Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa)cause she had griever in her finger (as you Gf's make users lost his memory one by one)and with the ages passes...She Lost Her Memory completly so she never be the same old rinoa so thats why she show no physical resemblance to Rinoa... and if you beat FF8 after defeting ultimecia she go and give the ring to matron...after that she give it to squall and then squall loves rinoa and give it to her...and then she becomes ultimecia and they defete her and then she give it to matron....etc.

I'm not with the opinion that Rinoa is Ultimecia
(1)i agree with Misao that if she is, then the whole meaning of the game changes...
(2)She definitely doesn't look like her but i think she has a resemblance with her mother Julia.
(3)Griever is the ring that Squall has and Ultimecia fused with Griever coz Squall said that Giever is the strongests of all GF so she could deafeat him.If you look the necklace of Squall the head is a lion(squall's surname is Leonheart)and the other part is wings.If it is wings its probably from Rinoa(on her back she has wing,her limit break is Angel wing).This can probably explain why Ultimecia fused with Griever because the necklase is a union of a lion and wings(Squall and Rinoa).[Question:Who gave the ring to Squall?]
(4)Even if the castle is built at the orphanage that doesn't mean anything because the orphanage plays a major role at the game not just because they gave a promise there but because all of them lived there.It could be biult there so that all of them could complete their destiny as Seeds(to deafeat the sorceress) and Edea created the Seeds but Edea is Matron so you get my drift...

I for one am a believer that Rinoa is Ultimecia, for reasons already stated, also I think it adds a pretty cool twist to the game.

There are some pretty eerie clues.

About the castle's location by the orphanage: it is the promised meeting place of Squall and Rinoa. No matter what happens, it was promised, that's where one of them would be waiting... for the other to arrive.

Another one, is Squall's vow of how no matter what happens, "I'll be your knight..." Perhaps Squall even helped Rinao get there, for all we know.

But, meh. I'm still skeptical about the whole idea. I don't see ANY clues whatsoever that Rinoa is in danger of becoming this power hungry maniac set to dominate space and time... @_@
But, well, getting old does strange things to people. LOL
As for me, I'll just leave the story with them sailing towards the sunset.

Originally posted by aggelos
I'm not with the opinion that Rinoa is Ultimecia
.[Question:Who gave the ring to Squall?]

Will The one that gives squall the ring is matron like said before

NOTE: Read my last posts to answer your questions.
And one more thing ,square soft will never give the whole story ,so that you should think about it and look for clues.
and this story my friend read it in magazine.
so if if you think that Rinoa is not Ultimecia, then give me reasons.
and if the story was about an evil women controls the past(and one thing why do you think Ultimecia controls the past??).i dont think you can answer this question.

So u believe that the story of FFVIII is about evil women controling the world???
I don't think that anyone is with this opinion.
About why she wants to control the past could be a reason to add a twist to the game(square couldn't find any other way so they came up with this idea:P)
How do u know that MAtron gave the ring to Squall?When did this happen?

to be honest with you it doesnt really matter, people have their own opions wheteher she looks like her or not, but i didnt really take so much care in that really, think what you think and other people will think how they want

Originally posted by aggelos
So u believe that the story of FFVIII is about evil women controling the world???
I don't think that anyone is with this opinion.
About why she wants to control the past could be a reason to add a twist to the game(square couldn't find any other way so they came up with this idea:P)
How do u know that MAtron gave the ring to Squall?When did this happen?

AND Who told you that i belive that the story of FFVIII is about evil women controling the world???
iam the one who told you that i dont think the stroy of ffVIII is just about an evil women controling the world. if you think that i think that the stroy of it, is about an evil women controlling the world...that means that all what i wrote was blown with the wind.

*sighs* I'll try to be really patient with you 'coz you seem to have a head as hard as gundanium.


When you said( Hey, Laguna himself said that Ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at Ultimecia's time)...yes ultimecia lives in a time so far away that they may have already died at ultimecia's time...cause, like i said before rinoa is a sorceress so she lives too long or maybe for eternty so of cource every one must dies

Dude, please, a lot of people already said that there's no actual proof that sorceresses age differently than humans do or are immortal until somone kills them, wait, they wouldn't be immortal then hehe ^_^. So, let me rephrase, There's no actual proof that sorceresses continue to age until somebody (or an angry mob of people with the thingy for lifting the haystack with flaming torches hehe ^_^) kills (or defeats, whatever, hey, I'm starting sound like my dad! WHEEEEEEE!!! :D) them.


...and you said( Ultimecia show no physical resemblance to Rinoa)cause she had griever in her finger (as you Gf's make users lost his memory one by one)and with the ages passes...She Lost Her Memory completly so she never be the same old rinoa so thats why she show no physical resemblance to Rinoa...

Okay fine, you do have a point on the GF thing BUT that doesn't mean 'coz you lost your memory you freakingly change your appearance from a very beautiful young woman into some creepish old hag! *shudders* eww... anywayz, you can't argue on this one. Edea's doesn't even count! She just had some freaky make up, but to me, she still looked the same!



and if you beat FF8 after defeting ultimecia she go and give the ring to matron...after that she give it to squall and then squall loves rinoa and give it to her...and then she becomes ultimecia and they defete her and then she give it to matron....etc.

Yeah, I beat FF8, and no, ultemecia DID NOT give the ring to Matron, she just gave her powers to her. And then, Matron DIDN'T GIVE the ring to Squall. But Squall does give it to Rinoa :)

...Hey, are you sure you played FF8? Look, I'm not trying to insult you, really, but, those things you mentioned, never happened in the game! Or is your imagintaion just getting the better of you?

Um, can you please check your spelling and grammar too? No, I'm not insulting you again it's just that sometimes, I can't really understand what you're trying to say ^_^ and nah, English ain't my first linggo either! It's my third! :) hehe

I lost you somewhere.You were talking to me or to FarisFantasy?
so what do you think?

I'm not going to say this theory of yours is totallyout of the question, BUT it comes to me as highly unbelievable.

1. Sure, Rinoa could have went loopy after Squall died(at some point in the future) but do you really think she would disgrace the memory of him?(Even if she did go crazy?)

2. Second of all, there is no actual evidence leading to the person that Squall recieved Griever from. Personally, I think it came from Squall's mother, seeing as her maiden name was Leonheart, it was probably a family emblem or something, ya know? But that is just my opinion.

3. Last, Even IF she did become Ultimecia, why would she look so different, huh? Sorceresses MAY age more gradually than your average Joe or not at all, BUT if they don't age normally that would have to imply some sort of fountain of youth effect. Meaning she should still look like the Rinoa we all know, ya?

I bid you good day.(And hope this made some sense.)

aggelos, I was reffering to FarisFantasy ^_^


Sure, Rinoa could have went loopy after Squall died

Squall didn't die! OMG!!! You turned off you PS before the BEST part of the ending finished!!! O.O Poor you...finish it again!!! This time, wait for the credites to finish!!!


but do you really think she would disgrace the memory of him?

Nevah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hehe, but really, Trajet, our ideas are quite similar! Yes, no. 2 makes a LOT of sense to me too :)

hmmm say if she was ultimicia, surely once you defeat ultimicia it would have erased rinoa from existance too?

hmmm say if she was ultimicia, surely once you defeat ultimicia it would have erased rinoa from existance too?

Okay let's say she was. But though I am a non-believer of Rinoa being Ultimecia, no, it wouldn't erase Rinoa. Because, changing the future won't change the present, changing the past does.

i have same thinking with you.
since i played ff8, i realize that ultimecia is rinoa in the future.
surely it's too complicated to understand, but it's about time and space, i have played for several times and it still confuses me how rinoa became ultimecia.
i hope Square-Enix would like to create continuation of FF8 and it can explain us, maybe :

Final Fantasy VIII
The Story Continues.........

or

Final Fantasy VIII
Evil Children

What a load of hogwash.
English is my first language, and I look down upon you all.

Originally posted by thecoldheart
i have same thinking with you.
since i played ff8, i realize that ultimecia is rinoa in the future.
surely it's too complicated to understand, but it's about time and space, i have played for several times and it still confuses me how rinoa became ultimecia.
i hope Square-Enix would like to create continuation of FF8 and it can explain us, maybe :

Final Fantasy VIII
The Story Continues.........

or

Final Fantasy VIII
Evil Children
Thank you for opinion.
and i think the first title is better.

okay then thecoldheart and farisfantasy explain yourselves.

As far as I have checked, I've countered most of the reasons you came up with. I don't want war, I just want a debate that's all ^_^ hehe. Come on please give me something to counter!!!*begs, is on kness*

And FF8: The Story Continues is...I dunno, too cliched. And FF8: Evil Children is lame, I mean, you make it sound as if they're evil! o.O No offence and I hope you take one. :)


I look down upon you all.

Just beacause it's your first linggo doesn't mean you're better than us. *mumbles* moron... <_<

I read about the first few posts on the thread. Rinoa is not ultimicea, she became possed after killing adel and recieveing her powers that doesnt make her ultimicea, you would know that if you actually played the game and iddnt push x constantly to skip ahead.

A sequel sure could make some things clear...
Final Fantasy VIII-2:P

you would know that if you actually played the game and iddnt push x constantly to skip ahead.

*laugh* yep, he IS right you know :)


Final Fantasy VIII-2

Yeah! Sequel!!! Come on! LEt's go outside Square's office and hold a rally there! With 'we want a sequel to ff8' banners :p hehe

Originally posted by aggelos
A sequel sure could make some things clear...
Final Fantasy VIII-2:P

Your Idea of Final Fantasy VIII-2 is great...and i wish that square enix make this new game.

NO! I can't accept the main theme of this topic! It's totally an "INSANE" opinion..!

Originally posted by EdeA
NO! I can't accept the main theme of this topic! It's totally an "INSANE" opinion..!

If you say that the main theme is insane ,Will At least tell me a few reasons why its insane!!

Originally poster by Farisfantasy
If you say that the main theme is insane ,Will At least tell me a few reasons why its insane


I think you must give us reasons why it's not insane:)

Originally posted by aggelos


I think you must give us reasons why it's not insane:)

Will I talk too much about it and give many reasons in the last pages...but at least the people who think that it is insane give us reasons.:)

Ultimecia can't be Rinoa because both of them are sorceress. The scene of Rinoa's face ended with Ultimecia's face at the last FMV is just a graphical display and it is not related to any relationship between them. (Rinoa, Adel, Edea, Ultimecia) all of them are sorceress. And they need to manipulate(making use of) each other's power to rule the land.
Anyway, Ultimecia surpass her to Matron(CID's wife) and if Ultimecia is Rinoa, She would perhaps surpass her power to Rinoa instead of Matron.

I don't know why Square-Enix created sequel of FF7, title : FF7 Advent Children but not FF8. Surely I like FF8 story than FF7, I like its love story. The sequel of FF8 should tell us how Rinoa became Ultimecia, when Griever wake up from the ring, and when the future world changed.

So do you agree guys? Come on, Rinoa is Ultimecia!!!

All of you that support this idea that Einoa is Ultimesia must give us reason that support this not just say it

But i'll agree that they should made the sequel of FFVIII that advent children.FF-VIII is better for a movie:)

I'm not too sure that Rinoa is Ultimecia i mean Rinoa recieving her sorceress powers was a mistake she was not born a sorceress like others and is it really a good idea to control yourself in the past, it just dosen't make any sense.

Ok, I've never personally believed that Ultimecia is Rinoa, but more like a possible great, great, great, etc... granddaughter, in my eyes it makes more sense. But here's a way that the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory can be explained.

First of all Sorceress' have a normal lifespan, but if they die or are killed, they don't "die" until their powers have been passed on

1) It starts with Edea, she first became a Sorceress at a young age, and then gained Ultimecia's power later in her life.

2) Rinoa gains Edea's powers, automatically making her the most powerful Sorceress of the time, due to the double load of Sorcery within her, this is where the Ultimecia thing can surface, Ultimecia is described as the most powerful Sorceress ever.

3) Rinoa had a dream (as did Squall I believe at the start of the game, a sort of prophecy if you will, that they promise to each other they'll meet at the field next to Edea's house, this explains the location of Ultimecia's Castle.

4) I believe the idea of Ellone, Time Compression, etc... is the idea that there are many different possible futures, at the end we see a possible future where Rinoa dies in space, Squalls desire for her not having reached her. However, if a Sorceress can't die until she's passed on her powers...

5) In this warped version of her existence, Rinoa eventually reaches the planet once again, having spent Hyne knows how long in space (could be a day, could be centuries). The Sorcery will have affected her in such a way its possible that she has been "reborn", well, her body has been slowly revived by it, or turned into a powerful form of undead.

6) Rinoa's appearance will have been warped marginally by the Sorcery (we've seen it with Edea, and I don't want to believe that Adel always looked like that), her hair turning grey, developing black tatoo-like marks on her face. Her white wings, up until then representing Angels, have also been warped by the Sorcery, turning them black (after all she is dead). But at the base of things, she still looks something like Rinoa.

7) Her Sorcery didn't only affect her, but unleashed another power on her, Squall's ring represented an almost physical ideal to Squall, the epitomy of everything strong and powerful. Rinoa sort of understood this, and indeed compared it to Squall himself. The Sorcery could have mingled with this belief and turned it into the Griever GF we see at the end.

8) Spending so much time alone, with only Griever, Rinoa begins to forget things, but at the core of her memory remembers that she had to go to Edea's house, for some reason, and thus builds her castle there. Also, she probably remembers basic stuff about SeeD, the major one being that SeeD exists for the purpose of defeating the Sorceress (which she would, think of it, Sorcery acts as a kind of magical bond to Sorceress', therefore, Ultimecia dies, but a trace of memory remains in the magic, passes on to Edea, passes onto Rinoa, Rinoa becomes Ultimecia, the process starts again), and thus begins her ascension into despising SeeD, without a real knowledge why.

9) When Squall is dying in Time Compression, he has a glimpse into the world that would have existed without Rinoa, you see her fading from his mind and being replaced in the end with Ultimecia, this makes you think that maybe they are the same person.

And now I'll stop, because my fingers are aching.

Kupo!!!

Also if considering they killed Ultimicia it would all have been in vain as Rinoa would have eventually turned into Ultimecia as the future has shown. So it can't be right.

Originally posted by Angelheart
Also if considering they killed Ultimicia it would all have been in vain as Rinoa would have eventually turned into Ultimecia as the future has shown. So it can't be right.

Not exactly, If we were to believe that Ultimecia is a form of Rinoa in another possible future, it wouldn't have an affect on things on OUR FFVIII, like, a bend in time or something...

Kupo!!!

I'm a little confused.
1)If Rinoa is Ultimecia then why Adel who is being used by Ultimecia tries to kill her in disk 3?

2)Everything that Ultimecia knows about them i believe she learned them when she possessed Rinoa and Edea.

3)Ultimecia didn't know about Griever until she asked Squall at the battle but Rinoa knew about it...(i'm not very sure about this though)

4)I think Square used the orphanage as the castle because all started from there (when they where children) and so a good idea was to end there...

5)Before the battle Ultimecia surery saw Rinoa if she was her she whould say something

But i believe that Rinoa could be her ancestor or the Hymn after all they say that Ultimecia is the most powerful Sorceress ever and Hymn was the most powerfull sorceress of all and she might want to have all her powers back:D

I agree with Aggelos, he has good points, anyway you can't change my point of view, no way. Rinoa is Rinoa, why would she become evil and change her name?

Originally posted by Farisfantasy

Will The one that gives squall the ring is matron like said before

NOTE: Read my last posts to answer your questions.
And one more thing ,square soft will never give the whole story ,so that you should think about it and look for clues.
and this story my friend read it in magazine.
so if if you think that Rinoa is not Ultimecia, then give me reasons.


bcuz its bollox

why would they put a rumour in a magazine and if Rinoa was Ultimecia why would she go in2 the past and risk trying to kil rinoa as that would kill herslf(sorry for bad spelling bit pissed)

It seems that someones don't know how to answer:PPPPPPPPPP

I like this idea, it adds something to game now

You do have some good facts that could make it true, but I doubt it. I think it's a 50/50. Because there are many good facts that say yes and no.

well i just think squaresoft have done the best at what they always do, giving all their fans food for thought, then going on and spreading their ideas so that everybody still has their own ideas to the game and things to think about, they do it with most ffs, ff7 - right at the end they leave you with the image of the world after holy has been used (and hey now they are making a movie about ff7, something about a disease, a side effect of holy called "star-scar-syndrome) look at ff8 (and the stuff they are making us talk about) look at ff10/10-2,



****SPOILER****



at the end of 10, when tidus has "disappeared" it shows him swimming back up people start thinking, hmm is he really gone? and if you complete 10-2, 100% like i have (go me!) hes come back. So thats two loose threads answered, maybe square are starting to answer these loose ends, so if a load of people post stuff to square asking for an answer, mebbe we get another ff8 game or an ff8 movie? hey its just a thought ;)

Originally posted by tidus_squall
<B> if a load of people post stuff to square asking for an answer, mebbe we get another ff8 game or an ff8 movie? </B>

No, Square-Enix wouldn't just simply make another FFVIII game because they get a load of people asking for answers. I'm sure they have already recieved thousands of requests for a sequel to FFVIII, FFIX, and others. But, it doesn't mean that they are going to do it.

hey i agree but raine (ellone's parent's friend)could be squalls mother so his surname could be lionheart but was changed when he was adopted.so the ring could be passed down from there!

I Think its possiable.




Note: (iam Sorry for not answering...cause i've faced many problems).

I havent read all of the above so if i repeat anything sorry.
im with you a little bit but doubt it cause id be wierd if when you face Ultimecia and rinoa is in your party then wouldnt she be kiling herself??just a thought and also the ring wasnt a GF it was just a plain old ring that squall had but squall imagined it was teh most powerful monster so ulty made it into a gf (using a spell or something).again sorry if i repeat anything.

Nah i would say that inside the ring there was a GF the whole time like solomon ring. Or if Ultimecia is Rinoa and put a spell on ring why would she call it what Squall had told Rinoa. (griever)

When Rinoa ask you what is the name of the ring if you give any name except Griever, when you fight Ultimecia and she summons Griever the GF will always have the name Griever or the name you gave the ring?

Why does everyone think that Rinoa being Ultimicia is so FarFetched?? Im not gonna sit here and type what has already been typed. But I think that Ultimicia=Rinoa is a very good thought hmmm now if this game had a twist like that maybe I would play it again! lol

Wasn't there a TBRPG here where Rinoa was Ultimecia waaaay back in the day?

At any rate, it's certainly possible that Rinoa is Ultimecia. I personally don't think that she is, but it's not that weird of a theory.

Okay Everyone, I'm new here but i'm fanatic over FFVIII, i've noticed everything that i think there is to notice...
Rinoa MAY AND MAY NOT be Ultimicia, it only depends on what you want to think! For instance, she doesnt look like Ultimicia, she doesnt act like Ultimicia, and the Griever GF battle can be explained this way... Ultimicia controled Rinoa's mind and right after she got the ring from Squall, so it was a fresh memory and Ultimicia might have caught up that information from her, and then she asks them what is true power? she remembers what Squall said, and in an attempt to psych them out, specially squall, she summons a GF like he could have imagined. Now this might be a little over the edge but it makes perfect sense. Ultimicia might only have caught the form of the GF from what Rinoa imagined it could be like, or maybe Ultimicia herself could have thought it up.
Now, if you wanna see that she is Ultimicia then look at it this way, the ring belongs to Rinoa, and she might never get old cause Edea never looks older than what she was when squall and the others were kids (of course the game graphics cant allow me to affirm that, but that is what it seems). Rinoa might go crazy without Squall, she might loose her memory and when she becomes that powerfull sorceress she comes back in time and finds her own body to search for what she wants. On the final FMV the image of Ultimicia's face converges with Rinoa's but that can be coincidence or not! I'm getting too confusing
What i'm trying to say is, maybe we're getting an idea that would make the story creators say: "where do they come up with that shit?" or maybe we just realized how fantastic is the storyline of this game. Its a great theory, but i'd say that to prove it right and for it to STAY right, you gotta ask the story creators :)
Thanks for your pacience!

I'll settle this for all of you...Rinoa is not Ultimecia because I dated her and she isn't.

lmao that has got to be the best explanation

I think the 1st version of Tidus_Leonheart is the correct and is much the same thing that i said before:)

Thanks Ice, couldnt agree more :D

LOL well theres our answer. Thank you Squall_leonhart724

Oh yeah, he owns this subject! :P

http://www.script-tease.net/kristian/

Something I wrote on the theory.

By the way, take note that the time loops diagrams were messed up when translated to XHTML, but if anyone is dying to know what they really should look like, ask me.

its a very cool and perceptive idea but something like this would hav to be part of the story line to be real and square soft(at the time!) would have mentioned it in some way. e.g. they even hint that laguna is squalls father even though they dont say it directly but i hav thought about this and they dont even hint so its a false statement.

Personnally i don't think Ultimecia is Rinoa. But there is so good arguments that I am wondering...''that could be true'' ...

Sir Bahamut has some really good facts and theories on the XHTML page (go visit it for the people who haven't read it), but my personal opinion is that the lack of information concerning the transition of Rinoa to Ultimecia and the ending FMV made people believe that this is true.

My biggest argument against the whole Rinoa Ultimecia thing was that Edea first received sorceress powers as a child. But now that seems to be blown out of the water, only because of the lack of information in the game.

This theory could be true but i choose not to believe it.

they absolutely not the same person. hei rinoa is heroin but ultemecia is the the last boss she had to counter... so they are two different persons. youve got it? its simple;)

The theory comes from the fact that Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. Rinoa is a sorceress in the present. Ultimecia could be a future version of Rinoa. Not likely, but at least something to consider. You've got it? It's simple. ;)

Faris Fantasy should be honoured that his quesiton 'Could Ultimica be Rinoa?'is still here.

My answer: No, its not very likely.

Just thought I should let you all know I have recently discovered that in the japanese game, Edea says in the ending:

"A sorceress cannot die while she has her powers" which makes sorceress immortality a FACT.

Since Rinoa is a sorceress, she will then outlive everyone, including Squall, her knight.

The theory is then merely a plausibele and highly logical result of what happens to Rinoa because of this.

I also figured something out while playing FFVIII today. Sorceresses can change their appearance fairly easily it seems.
Take for instance Adel. I don't think that Adel was always 12 foot tall. She is human after all (semi-quote from Laguna).

Actually, that was already mentioned in my paper.

So, and what would Rinoa being Ultemicia or whatever her English name was mean for the game's MESSAGE?

Rinoa teaching Squall to take the risk of loving someone, even though one day they might be gone. This Rinoa doesn't go mad and tries to destroy the world when she loses her boyfriend after seventy years of happy life. >_<

Also, don't you think that there would be more hints to such an important plot detail?

This is all simply from a point of view that considers FF8 a game with a story and a message, created by programmers that had been thinking when making up the whole thing.
And if your story is "Dare to love!!" you don't have the character who introduces us to this happy, carefree attitude go insane and trying to destroy the world.


Even if Rinoa cannot die while having her power. This is no proof that she is Ulty. Who knows what could happen. Maybe she will chose to give up her powers on her own (if that's possibole. I forgot), so she can age happily along with her friends. Who knows? It's not in the game! Anything is possible.
And because there IS no information telling us more about this future with Ulty, I assume that it's supposed to be FAR in the future, with a real FUTURE witch that we have not met in the present or past...


And by the way. I've always thought that the first Ghostbusters movie has the best explanation for what Griever is. Griever is a manifestation of the ultimate power, taken from Squall's thoughts, since he thinks it's the most powerful being ever, as he explains earlier.
Think of the Marshmellow man!
THis is NO hint on Rinoa being anybody or Ulty knowing anything only Rinoa would know.

So, and what would Rinoa being Ultemicia or whatever her English name was mean for the game's MESSAGE?

Rinoa teaching Squall to take the risk of loving someone, even though one day they might be gone. This Rinoa doesn't go mad and tries to destroy the world when she loses her boyfriend after seventy years of happy life. >_<

Also, don't you think that there would be more hints to such an important plot detail?

This is all simply from a point of view that considers FF8 a game with a story and a message, created by programmers that had been thinking when making up the whole thing.
And if your story is "Dare to love!!" you don't have the character who introduces us to this happy, carefree attitude go insane and trying to destroy the world.

What the message of the game is is completely up to each individual, and R=U can make for just as good a message as R != U.

As for the hints in the game, there are about as many hints for Laguna being Squalls father as there are hints used for the R=U theory, so I don't think that is much of an issue really, seeing as no one really doubts Squall being LAgunas son.


Even if Rinoa cannot die while having her power. This is no proof that she is Ulty. Who knows what could happen. Maybe she will chose to give up her powers on her own (if that's possibole. I forgot), so she can age happily along with her friends. Who knows? It's not in the game! Anything is possible.
And because there IS no information telling us more about this future with Ulty, I assume that it's supposed to be FAR in the future, with a real FUTURE witch that we have not met in the present or past...

Obviously, anything can happen.
However, in this case, the best thing to do is to assume as little as possible.
The more complex your theory gets, the more it becomes a fanfic rather than a theory.

And I for one doubt Rinoa would want to give her powers to someone else.
I mean, think of Edea. She did not wish for anyon of her children to become a sorceress, bgecause she knew it was a bad fate.
I think Rinoa would do the same.

So assuming as little as possible, we are left with Rinoa outliving everyone.

That's the absolute minimum you could possible assume, and is enough to set off the theory.

I don't know if you understand what I meant with "message".
Rinoa (not)being Ultemicia is not the message. A message is a small bit of wisdom that the story tries to convey.
In the case of FFVIII, it is most certainly to dare to love.

Squall, who's afradid to lose what he loves, has decided not to let himself grow attached to people. He's loved before, and has lost those he loved, and is afraid to have to go through this again. However, this makes him unhappy.
Rinoa comes and changes his view. Dare to love.
The message is: Squall is wrong, Rinoa is right, be ready to love, the outcome isn't as bleak as you think.

If now Rinoa was to go insane over Squall dying, it'd completely controdict what she's taught him. It's Squall early attitude, this going crazy over a person's death.

Personality-wise, as well as from an artistic standpoint, it doesn't make sense that Rinoa turned into Ultimecia.


As for assuming as little as possible, I did that while playing FFVIII. Squall probably being Laguna's son was obvious. Think of what Kiros said on the Ragnarok, etc. Rinoa being Ulty didn't cross my mind at all. It was a lot less obvious. It's a lot less likely. And the more I examine this theory, the more I think that for the reasons stated above, if Rinoa was really Ulty, it'd make the game... suck. Because it'd destroy the message. Totally.

No, I knew what you meant by "message", you just misread my post.

Anyway, you are committing a fallacy when you use that argument.
You see, you played the game, and formed your opinion on it and it's message without considering the theory as true(you didn't even know the theory existed).

Then it is obvious that introducing the theory to you will probably in some way contradict the opinion you formed of the plot.
You are committing a fallacy because you are clinging to your old opinion when dealing with a new theory.

That's why your argument has no real significance on the theories plausibility.

Anyway, the theories plausibility is an individual thing. Some people find the "hints" to be strong enough, and think it makes the story good etc., others don't.
No one can be proven correct.

That's why I said if it's true, it means the game sucks, because the message: "Haha, and Squall had been right in the beginning: People who fall in love will go mad and bring ruin to themselves and to the world!" sucks mightily as a message for such a sweet love story.

Okay, this is my last post in here~ I rest my case, have fun.

...wow interesting.

Haha, sounds almost comical.

Regardless, I think it would be great if Square actually meant for the theory to be true, because it would be such a great difference from all their usual soppy love stories(read: FF4, 6, 9 and 10).

Okay, so how about this. The reason Squall saw Rinoa "change into" Ultimecia is not because ultimecia is Rinoa, but because that was his worst fear.
If you don't understand, think of it this way. When Squall and Ellone were in the escape pod and Ellone took Squall into the past to see what really happened to Rinoa, he saw Ultimecia in Rinoa's body. Now when Rinoa was possessed, Squall was extremely distraught. He didn't know if he was going to hear Rinoa's voice again etc. Obviously, he didn't want to go through that again. So really, seeing Rinoa possessed by Ultimecia in the time compressed world is showing that he won't be able to be with her anymore, therefore it is one of his fears.

Okay I think I got that right.

reasons why it's highly likely that rinoa is ulti:

some say it's impossible because they are thousands of years apart from each other. ok. but edea said somepoint in the game that a sorceress can never rest in peace unless she get's rid of her powers. therefore, it's possible that ulti is a 2000 year old rinoa.

When rinoa was in the ragnarok in the end of disc 3, she says that she can one day turn into ulti. so rinoa is ulti. it might be explained if they made an 8-2

When rinoa was in the ragnarok in the end of disc 3, she says that she can one day turn into ulti.

When did she say that? Please be more specific.

ok. when you find the ragnarok in disc 4, you can go in the cockpit. talk to rinoa then.

Hmm If she said that then there wouldn't be a thread about it...and you get the Ragnarok in disk three. She never says that.

reasons why it's highly likely that rinoa is ulti:

some say it's impossible because they are thousands of years apart from each other. ok. but edea said somepoint in the game that a sorceress can never rest in peace unless she get's rid of her powers. therefore, it's possible that ulti is a 2000 year old rinoa.

Yes, thank you for restating the argument that has been used for quite a long time now.

[quote]When rinoa was in the ragnarok in the end of disc 3, she says that she can one day turn into ulti. so rinoa is ulti. it might be explained if they made an 8-2/quote]

Completely wrong. Rinoa says that her powers will one day reach Ultimecia.

Her statement speaks against the theory, so it is quite ironic that you should think it makes the theory likely.

Of course, Rinoa also says that no one can predict the future, so her statement can't really be used properly against the theory.

The only reason Rinoa says that, is because she was controlled by Ultimecia once and she is feared that Ultimecia could control her again its the same thing that Edea fears(she says that when she joins u to go to Esthar)

I think the beauty of it is it leaves it up to your own imagination. Believe what you wanna believe. The facts are there to support both arguments.
If your a hopless romantic (like me), then you can just see Rinoa and Squall flying off into the sunset, with Squall now the more open person Rinoa has moulded him into.
Or you could believe Rinoa frys him with sorcery ten minutes after the credits, whichever floats your boat!;)

Yeah! Fry! FRY!!! HA HA HA.

Sorry, got a bit emotional there.

On the game.

Edea: In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers, i know, for i am one too.

Therefore, in order to LIVE in peace, a sorceress must HAVE her powers, however Rinoa did NOT live in peace when she was being possesed by Ultimecia, and she regretted her actions, therefore the chances are very low that Ultimecia is Rinoa.

I'm afraid that inital conclusion is flawed.
This isn't a case of "2-2=0 so 0+2 =2" I'm afraid.

In order for a sorceress to DIE in peace, she can't have her powers. The only other implication is that if she dies WITH her powers, she won't die in peace.

What she's like when she's alive is not implied to at all.

Anyway, your argument makes no sense if the first assumption were true.
At least, I can't see any logic, so could you make it a bit clearer?

Wow, what a nice way for a n00b to start out. I found the other thread on this topic on google, and resurrected it from the dead before I saw this one! (I may have seen the bad spelling and the exaggerated "?!" in the topic name in my peripheral vision, making me gloss over it the first time around.) Anyway, I referr to something in the other post, but I think my post would be better off here. I hope that other topic just dies again. *highly embarrassed*

--

I can't believe so many people believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia... Really, all Rinoa would have to do is pass on her powers to someone else. Edea said herself (when Ultimecia came to the orphanage) that a sorceress cannot die in peace without having passed her powers on. (And BTW, Edea first got her powers as a child, from a different sorceress, not Ultimecia. Is this important? Who knows.)

If Rinoa couldn't stand the thought of living out thousands of years without Squall (assuming a sorceress really does live that long), she could have killed herself and passed her powers on to someone else. Or, pass on her powers without dying (like Edea), if she could figure out how to do that. This may be a moral problem for her, but hey, isn't it better than going berserk? Besides, before, Rinoa chose to let the Estharians seal her rather than let her powers go berserk. Why wouldn't she do so again, especially if Squall were not around anymore and she no longer had a reason to escape?

Also, about that site that Black Magic User posted in the other thread. Some of the points are interesting, but some of them are just not sound. I'll just go to some of the points:

(Here's the link: http://squallsangel83.freeservers.com/about.html)

2) This could be a simple case of Ultimecia having lost something in the past and being angry about it. It's not necessarily Squall that she lost. I mean, usually in stories it's good to have round antagonists, isn't it? Just because she's developed doesn't mean she's one of the main protagonists in the past. As a developer, I wouldn't take it so ridiculously far as that.

You made an interesting point of her getting Squall to come and kill her. However, if she were sane enough to go through all the trouble she did just to get Squall there, why would she put up such a fight when he got there? I think she's just a bitter and angry person trying to take over the world, and Squall was there to save the day. Everything was basically according to Laguna and Odine's plan -- Ultimecia had to use Rinoa because she was the only sorceress left to possess, and Squall and Co. were there waiting to come.

5) Squall thought of Griever as a kind of icon. He has a Griever necklace, so why shouldn't he have a ring with Griever on it as well? Who would have passed on a legendary ring that could summon Griever, to a little orphan boy? (And I doubt he would have just found it and thought, "Wow, I'll make this lion my icon.") There were no references to such a thing in the game, and if it were that significant, the developers would have mentioned it. Squall just treats it like his favourite ring -- he didn't even mind giving it to Zell! Zell, of all people!

6) Wings just look cool... I mean, they gave Sephiroth a wing, didn't they? Rinoa just needed a motif. Maybe the wings are a contrast between the two sorceresses, like, "This sorceress is evil and bad -- but at the same time, this one is good!" It's the whole moral thing behind being a sorceress that pops up with Edea.

7) It may just symbolise things going bad. I mean, there was a shot of Rinoa dying in space there, too. Just everything that could have gone wrong, going wrong. (I mean, Rinoa could have turned into an evil sorceress and he would have had to kill her, right?)

8) It's funny that site creator mentions that. As I was going through that last FMV sequence to get a screenshot of Ultimecia for a future site, my brother's friend said, "Hey she looks a lot like Quistis!" It's because of the style of the game, and perhaps the limits of their animation at the time. Most of the characters have similar face shapes, eyes, etc.

A side note: it's interesting that the sorceress's powers do not transcend time. That is, when you're in one place in time, a sorceress will still have her powers, even if she passes them on in the future.

Anyway, that's it for me.

--Michelle

I can't believe so many people believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia... Really, all Rinoa would have to do is pass on her powers to someone else. Edea said herself (when Ultimecia came to the orphanage) that a sorceress cannot die in peace without having passed her powers on. (And BTW, Edea first got her powers as a child, from a different sorceress, not Ultimecia. Is this important? Who knows.)

If Rinoa couldn't stand the thought of living out thousands of years without Squall (assuming a sorceress really does live that long), she could have killed herself and passed her powers on to someone else. Or, pass on her powers without dying (like Edea), if she could figure out how to do that. This may be a moral problem for her, but hey, isn't it better than going berserk? Besides, before, Rinoa chose to let the Estharians seal her rather than let her powers go berserk. Why wouldn't she do so again, especially if Squall were not around anymore and she no longer had a reason to escape?

You basically hit the main issue of the theory here.
You see, the theory revolves around three basic points.

1) Rinoas psyche, 2)sorceress lifespan, and 3) Squares way of telling a story.

The first is the case here.

Is Rinoa the kind of person who would give away her powers to someone else to escape the rather terrible fate of being a sorceress?
You think she would give away her powers to someone to avoid going berserk, even though it would just force the poor woman who got her powers to have to take the same choice.

Edea did not do this. I think Rinoa is the same.

I think Rinoa wouldn't WANT to put someone else in that position, even if it meant she might go mad.
I think she'd rather let herself go mad than someone else.

Of course, this is all speculation, but that's what any theory in the game revolves around.
The first point in the theory assumes Rinoa would NOT give away her powers, and is a perfectly plausible(I would say the most plausible myself) option.

Your second point about sealing herself off is a good one, but the theory assumes she refuses(or doesn't even consider it) due to the insanity and grief over her dead knight and husband.

The second point is also perfectly plausible, although the third is pure opinion really.

As for the website you argue against, I won't try and argue for that one, because quite frankly, the website is utter crap.
Perhaps you'd find this more interesting:

http://www.slimits.com/ultimecia.html

You're right, your site is far more interesting than the others I've seen. It's nice to see people make an effort on defending the theory.

After reading your site, I acknowledge that it can be proven that theory is possible. I'm just the type that prefers to rely only on canon, as opposed to fanon. For example, after I replayed the game and realised that nowhere is it stated that Laguna is Squall's father, I wondered how so many fanfic authors could write these two characters as if they had known it since they were first reunited in Esthar, and virtually no authors explored the issue of them not knowing. But, that aside, while I won't hold fast to any theories, I realize that some aspects of the game fit very nicely into the R=U theory.

For example, Ultimecia passes her powers on to someone in the past, whose powers, along with Adel's, will eventually be consolidated into Rinoa, and therefore come back to Ultimecia with time. By doing that she ends the cycle of the sorceress after Ultimecia's time, and it could only have been achieved during Time Compression. It would solve the moral issue of Rinoa passing on her powers to someone else, and would explain more about why Ultimecia felt the need to compress time rather than just rule in terror over her own time. Once again, it could just be Ultimecia being a rounded antagonist, who actually wants to do something good -- but it still fits nicely into the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory.

Well, this would work nicely if a sorceress's powers did not accumulate with each new inheritence of power. If, however, they did, then it would happen as you stated in you paper -- Ultimecia would eventually be powerful enough to defeat Squall, and the world would eventually end up stuck in Time Compression. If the second were true, then the motivation behind Ultimecia passing off her powers to the past would change completely! This is assuming, of course, that she has a motivation for doing so.

The Artimesia comparison is very interesting! Could Ultimecia's castle actually be Squall's tomb? That would be interesting. It is on the flower fields. Anyone find anything like a sarcophagus while they were in Ultimecia's castle?

---

Ah, I wrote something here before, but I puzzled it out and realized that it didn't work. (^^);

Thanks for your attention.

--Michelle

Well, this would work nicely if a sorceress's powers did not accumulate with each new inheritence of power. If, however, they did, then it would happen as you stated in you paper -- Ultimecia would eventually be powerful enough to defeat Squall, and the world would eventually end up stuck in Time Compression.

Actually, the powers would only increase if the past changes. Ellone states the exact opposite, and I see no reason to go against her.
Sorceress powers should add up too, it is the option that makes more sense based on what we know.


The Artimesia comparison is very interesting! Could Ultimecia's castle actually be Squall's tomb? That would be interesting. It is on the flower fields. Anyone find anything like a sarcophagus while they were in Ultimecia's castle?

I considered the possibility yes, but have not been able to search the castle recently for any signs that it might be Squalls mausoleum.

But since Squares last dungeons usually have a very grand design, it's very opinionated in the end, unless there's some striking resemblances between the castle and Artemisias Mausoleum.

Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
Actually, the powers would only increase if the past changes. Ellone states the exact opposite, and I see no reason to go against her.

Sorceress powers should add up too, it is the option that makes more sense based on what we know.

Ellone said the past couldn't change, but there needs to be some explanation for the past being able to be altered by the present, since Laguna remembers Squall's voice in his head, which we know came from Laguna's future. If you think of an existence from the past being seperate from an existence in the future, all existing and moving forward simultaneously but in different stages of time, then this can work. So, you could think of it as a "future" Squall (18 years or so in the future) going into "our" Laguna's head, before "our" Squall was even born (and perhaps while he was a child...I can't remember how far forward we go in Laguna's life.) Then, when "our" Squall gets to the present, Laguna thinks it's the same Squall who was in his head, when in fact, "our" Squall visited a seperate Laguna who's still in the past.

If you think of it like that, then the sorceress powers could still increase in an existence "behind" the present as we know it (in the game), though these increased powers would take another few thousand years to reach that existence's Ultimecia. None of this needs to affect the our "present" at all. So, Ellone could still be right in saying, "You can't change the past.", because the present existence's past has not changed, only a past existence's present. Time Compression could take place in any existence, but would still affect all of them, so it would still have negative implications to our present, though Squall and friends would be long dead by then.

Ellone said the past couldn't change, but there needs to be some explanation for the past being able to be altered by the present, since Laguna remembers Squall's voice in his head, which we know came from the future.

No, you're wrong. There doesn't have to be an explanation. The explanation is already there.
It's all a matter of thinking as simple as possible:

Ellone tells us the past can't change. Logically, that means nothing on the entire line of time can be changed.
Since time travel is also possible, all points on the line of time are fixed and unaltered.
That INCLUDES all time travelling.

With this well defined line of time, Laguna can remember Squall because Squall was always there to begin with.
It's like, starting at the point where Laguna gets "half possessed" by Squall, you could look forward on the line of time and see that Squall would in the future be in the process of being sent back by Ellone.

Nothing changes, everything is set. "Fate" in a sense, rules over the people of FF8.

So I won't go into the rest of your post, because the assumption it was based on was flawed.

I will however comment on one thing:


Time Compression could take place in any existence, but would still affect all of them, so it would still have negative implications to our present, though Squall and friends would be long dead by then.

This is in fact flawed too. Because since TC affects ALL time, once it's activated, everone anywhere in time would notice it.
Since this obviously includes the past, it should be impossible to play the game if this were true, because time would be fully compressed.

That flaw also exists if sorceress powers add up and the past changes. I realized it just a minute ago actually, and it actually works as final clinching proof that sorceress powers cannot add up if the past changes and vice versa.

Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut

Ellone tells us the past can't change. Logically, that means nothing on the entire line of time can be changed.
Since time travel is also possible, all points on the line of time are fixed and unaltered.
That INCLUDES all time travelling.

With this well defined line of time, Laguna can remember Squall because Squall was always there to begin with.
It's like, starting at the point where Laguna gets "half possessed" by Squall, you could look forward on the line of time and see that Squall would in the future be in the process of being sent back by Ellone.

Nothing changes, everything is set. "Fate" in a sense, rules over the people of FF8.

I guess the only thing I can do is say that there's no starting point, then? Everything was just there to begin with, and it's just a solid line that continues on forever in a certain way? Perhaps it would be simpler to think of it that way...

-- Wait, there can be a starting point, can't there? It's just that time travel to the past comes before the future from which the time traveller comes, doesn't it? So, we really can be at the actual present, and there's a past behind us, but there's only Fate ahead of us, no actual events that have yet transpired? I think that makes sense. Also, Fate is a major part of this game, so it seems most likely.

However, there's just this thing... When you know that the future will end up a certain way, and you find a way that you're absolutely certain can allow you to avoid that future... What then? But then again, there's no way they can be sure about the details of the actions they take in the future, because they only viewpoint they have into time is Ellone, who can only see the past.


Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
This is in fact flawed too. Because since TC affects ALL time, once it's activated, everone anywhere in time would notice it.
Since this obviously includes the past, it should be impossible to play the game if this were true, because time would be fully compressed.

I was thinking of it from the standpoint that nothing can exist in a Time Compressed world, so then you wouldn't even notice time had been compressed, and therefore wouldn't realize it had occured. I wonder how the people of the world felt when they came out of Time Compression, though? We don't actually know if they realized it happened at all, or not.


Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
That flaw also exists if sorceress powers add up and the past changes. I realized it just a minute ago actually, and it actually works as final clinching proof that sorceress powers cannot add up if the past changes and vice versa.

Hehe, I find myself realizing things every few minutes, too. However, I have yet to find myself on stable ground.

I guess the only thing I can do is say that there's no starting point, then? Everything was just there to begin with, and it's just a solid line that continues on forever in a certain way? Perhaps it would be simpler to think of it that way...

-- Wait, there can be a starting point, can't there? It's just that time travel to the past comes before the future from which the time traveller comes, doesn't it? So, we really can be at the actual present, and there's a past behind us, but there's only Fate ahead of us, no actual events that have yet transpired? I think that makes sense. Also, Fate is a major part of this game, so it seems most likely.

I go over the time with a starting point and the fixed line in the link I posted, read about it there.

What you speculate has no flaws(that I can spot anyway), but I personally believe in the fixed timeline.
Its' the simples and IMO most logical way to look at things.


However, there's just this thing... When you know that the future will end up a certain way, and you find a way that you're absolutely certain can allow you to avoid that future... What then?

That wouldn't be possible.
Even if you tried ever so hard to fight it, things would always end up as they were set out.
Of course, this fate could be a result of free will, so that's not ruled out.


But then again, there's no way they can be sure about the details of the actions they take in the future, because they only viewpoint they have into time is Ellone, who can only see the past.

If Squalls past cannot change, then neither can a persons a million years into the future.
Since that future persons past would be part of Squalls future, Squalls future cannot change either.

This logic can be used to show that ALL of the line of time is fixed based on Ellones comment and timetravel. Well, save the very end of the line of time, since that wouldn't have a respective future point of reference, but it would logically be included anyway(after all, it would make no sense if nothing could be changed save a tiny fraction at the very end).


I was thinking of it from the standpoint that nothing can exist in a Time Compressed world, so then you wouldn't even notice time had been compressed, and therefore wouldn't realize it had occured.

That doesn't matter. Point is, no one can exist in TC save Ultimecia, and since we can play the game and Squall is existing, TC could NEVER have been completed anywhere on the line of time.

Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
I go over the time with a starting point and the fixed line in the link I posted, read about it there.

Yeah, I think I will. I read it before, but without coming to roadblocks on my own and having to reconsider things again and again, I don't think I could completely grasp everything. Now I can come back to it having worked through things a little more.


Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
This logic can be used to show that ALL of the line of time is fixed based on Ellones comment and timetravel. Well, save the very end of the line of time, since that wouldn't have a respective future point of reference, but it would logically be included anyway(after all, it would make no sense if nothing could be changed save a tiny fraction at the very end).

That's why I thought that if the events in the game were actually at the end of the line (if there is an end), then the future may be able to be changed. However, like you said, logically it should be included as well. I think it's better just to think of the line as without an end at all... kind of like the universe.... (As far as we know.) Therefore, nothing could be changed -- no exceptions.


Originally posted by Sir_Bahamut
That doesn't matter. Point is, no one can exist in TC save Ultimecia, and since we can play the game and Squall is existing, TC could NEVER have been completed anywhere on the line of time.

I get you.

On a competely different note, why is it that Edea says that "is that the sorceress" rather than "is that a sorceress" in the ending scenes? It seems like she knows what is happening, kind of.
And also, when she recieves Ultimecia's powers she says "is this the end?" and Squall says "Looks like it" or something like that. I don't quite understand that part, but I think it might be something to do with the R=U theory. can someone explain that part?

I'm afraid I can't. Never thought hard about that before, but now you mention it, it IS strange.

She also says "You're that boy from the future?" as if she knows all about him on beforehand?

But when Squall arrives, nothing has happened yet for Edea, she hasn't been possessed yet or anything, so she has no way of knowing.

Very odd indeed. I'll have to think about that one.

I'm sure it's possible that sorceress powers do 'add up'. Time compression would lead to the combination of sorceress powers, it says that when you go to the information area in the menu.

Sorry if you've already got that on your paper, it's been so long
since I've read it.

No. If you fight Ultemicia with Rinoa, how is she her?

It's all explained in Sir_Bahamut's paper.

According to Sir_bahamut Squall is Rinoa's knight. If this is correct Ultimecia can't be Rinoa coz when Squall is in the pod to escape from the lunar gate he ask Ellone to send him to Rinoa's past and one of scenes show Rinoa lying on the floor of the Galbadia auditorium and then being possed by Ultimecia . She(Ultimecia)talks to Seifer and she referes to him as her knight

But it says in the paper that Ultimecia could have forgotten Squall after he died (GF's etc), so she just found herself a new knight.

If she found a new knight why then we don't fight him before Ultimecia?

Originally posted by Farisfantasy
Do You Think That Ultimica is Rinoa?

No

Okay, I haven't been keeping up to date on this thread, but I do wish to speak up again.

Rinoa being Ultimecia is about as likely as anything. I do not say this because I personally agree with the theory, believe me I do not. But here's an explanation, not very good but here it is.

We, the players, only see a fraction of the world that FFVIII is set in. We are playing in a specific time period, occassionally being taken to Laguna's time through Ellone's power. We have absolutely no idea how long a sorceress actually lives, it could be the same amount of time normal humans do or it could be such a lifespan that it could be on the verge of eternal life. We know Ultimecia to be a powerful sorceress in the future, when we do not know. We know Rinoa to be a sorceress in the current time frame.

It is possible, that through time Rinoa was changed by Squall's inevitable death as a human. True, she might have become the sorceress known only as Ultimecia. This theory is also given some help by Ultimecia's use of Griever, the beast on squall's ring. Through time, her physical appearance may have changed to be what we recognize Ultimecia as. But we must also ask for those who think such physical change is not possible, is it totally absurd that she could have changed her own appearance to disguise herself, to start a new life as someone else?

Now, in her natural time, the time far away fom Rinoa's time, Ultimecia may have remembered Squall. Ultimecia may have decided to go back in time, to be with Squall and meet him in the field. For what reason is as good a guess as mine. Anyway, through her travel in time, is it not possible that her mind, her memories were changed in a way? We see that Squall and all who go back in time through dream sequences are not changed, but they have not gone back through the many years that Ultimecia would have had to go through. This is strengthened somewhat by the location for her castle, the place that Squall and Rinoa said they would be.

Now, coming back to Griever. Who other than Squall and Rinoa knew the beast's name? The ring itself was a symbol of who Squall was, strength, pride,etc. It has been a thought of mine, that the GF Griever came from the ring itself, having resided their until a powerful enough force brought it out, Ultimecia.

In the end, if this 'Rinoa is Ultimecia' theory is correct, which I hope it is not, it may have been a good thing. Think on this, there had to have been a beginning to this entire thing, right? The first time that this occured, there was no Ultimecia from the future to fight. Maybe somehow, the presence of Ultimecia in the next timeline changed the future of Squall and Rinoa's fate. Maybe, Squall and Rinoa died together, maybe Rinoa died and Squall was left alone again. There are endless possibilities to this theory, to this specific occurence of time travel.

Again, I do hope that this 'Rinoa is Ultimecia' theory is someday disproved. I would hate to know that such a sweet being as Rinoa could ever be turned into someone like Ultimecia, so lost and disfigured through the grief of Squall's death as I would assume.

Farewell,

Trajet Trouvaille

Ok, for Edea saying "the sorceress" I think she just wondered if she was a sorceress in general.
She later calls her "that sorceress" so I don't think she knows who she is.

As for her then saying "are you that boy from the future", she means THAT boy, as in THAT boy who just ran out, as in little Squall.

As for Ultimecia calling Seifer her knight, it's obvious that Seifer isn't Ultimecias knight. Seifer is just a helpless puppet being controlled by Ultimecia.
Seifers childhood dream was to be a sorceress knight(after watching Laguna in that film actually) and Ultimecia used it against him.

But he was nowhere near her real knight.
An example of a real knight would be Cid, who is Edeas knight. A knight helps keep the sorceress calm, and keep her loved and happy, not kill off everyone who opposes her.


This theory is also given some help by Ultimecia's use of Griever, the beast on squall's ring.

Nah, Griever was drawn from Squalls mind right there and then in battle, so he doesn't speak for or against the theory.



Through time, her physical appearance may have changed to be what we recognize Ultimecia as. But we must also ask for those who think such physical change is not possible, is it totally absurd that she could have changed her own appearance to disguise herself, to start a new life as someone else?

No need to ask that. Just look at Adel.

Adel wasn't born like that. She used to be a normal woman at one point!


The first time that this occured, there was no Ultimecia from the future to fight.

Wrong. If the line of time were set out in a linear fashion and was completely unchangeable, there would be no need of a first time which didn't start with Edea receiving Ultimecias powers.

Okay, I'm going to print this off and work out all of the relevant stuff so I can post it on a new thread (maybe).


Seifers childhood dream was to be a sorceress knight(after watching Laguna in that film actually) and Ultimecia used it against him.

How did you know that? The japanese version of the game? I thought he got the whole idea from a book at Balamb's library.

Wrong. If the line of time were set out in a linear fashion and was completely unchangeable, there would be no need of a first time which didn't start with Edea receiving Ultimecias powers.

Okay, overlooked that.

Edea got her power from two sorceresses, she was already a sorceress by the time Ultimecia passed her powers to Edea.

I've also been reading this fanfiction on FFVIII and it is great.

Griever Chronicles (http://www.tripleflame.org/fanfiction/chronicles.html)

After reading all of that, which by the way hasn't been finished yet, it's an ongoing work. Read the next one afterwards.

Griever Chronicles: Lion's Pride (http://www.tripleflame.org/fanfiction/chronicles.html)

The home site for these fanfics (http://www.tripleflame.org/fanfiction/)

I've read Griever Chronicles somewhere before... Maybe on Icy Brian (http://www.icybrian.com) or http://www.fanfiction.net. Maybe someone stole it.

Oh, it's also there. This is the person who originally wrote the griver chronicles, just on their own site.

IS RINOA, ULTIMACIA

I THINK THAT WE THE ONE THAT ARE PLAYING THE GAME WOULD

NEVER FIND THE TRUTH UNTIL THEY MAKE A FINAL FANTASY VIII-2.

JUST LIKE WHAT THEY DID FOR FF VII, THE ADVENT CHILDREN.

FOR NOW I SAY YES

Originally posted by deadangel
IS RINOA, ULTIMACIA

I THINK THAT WE THE ONE THAT ARE PLAYING THE GAME WOULD

NEVER FIND THE TRUTH UNTIL THEY MAKE A FINAL FANTASY VIII-2.

JUST LIKE WHAT THEY DID FOR FF VII, THE ADVENT CHILDREN.

FOR NOW I SAY YES


Shut up until you learn to type in lowercase.

Seifers childhood dream was to be a sorceress knight(after watching Laguna in that film actually) and Ultimecia used it against him.

How did you know that? The japanese version of the game? I thought he got the whole idea from a book at Balamb's library.
Seifer: Oh, you bet. But since I like you so much, I thought you should go first. I was hoping you'd be there, Squall. So...how'd I look in my moment of triumph? My childhood dream, fulfilled. I've become the
sorceress' knight.
Squall: (...Sorceress' knight...) (...His...romantic dream...?) (But...Seifer...
Now,
you're just...) ...A torturer.

I think somewhere in the game it is mentioned that if a knight isn't good enough then the sorceress could go bad or if a sorceress doesn't have a knight the same thing will happen.
So i think that this is the reason that Ultimecia became bad. And since the game mentions that there are many sorceress that keep a low profile becase they are afraid of people so U could be one of them. She became so powerful by gaining powers from other sorceress

We can deduce that Seifers childhood dream of becoming a sorceress knight stems from Lagunas film.

Just look at the way Laguna holds his gunblade, and the way he swings it when he attacks.
Then look at his victory dance thing.

Now look at how Seifer holds his gunblade, how he attacks, and what his victory dance looks like.

That's right. They are literally identical.
Coincedence? I don't think so.

But where did Seifer learned about Laguna?

By watching the film =P

But still Seifer was Ultimecias knight since Edea's knight was Cid.Squall is Rinoa's knight so we have 2 different knight so 2 diffrent sorceress Rinoa and Ultimecia

The critics will argue with you though that Seifer was never really Ultimecia's knight at all. Just a puppet, or somebody that was being used, but not really a Knight in the true fashion.

Exactly. Seifer was no knight. Ultimecia merely enchanted him, using his own boyish fantasies about being a Knight to manipulate him.

If Ultimecia was Rinoa why would she threaten her own existence by ditching her in space to die?

Ultimecia is Rinoa's opposite like Seifer is to Squall. Nothing more. Opposite clothing colors, opposite wings, opposite personality.

Believers are reading WAY too much into a video game with plot holes (even thought it is still my favorite).

Square itself confirmed that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. End of story.

I don't mean to burst your bubble and knock you off the rhythm you think you have, but this thread is freaking 6 YEARS OLD!

Seems that there's a surge of noobs on the forum now, who don't check the date of the last post BEFORE making a post of their own.

Yeah, R=U = Busted. In any case, closing...