List your top five favorite video game endings, using links to YouTube if available. Expect Spoilers!

1. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess ~ Wii
-Part 1: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Final Boss/End of Game - Part 2 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/AQnCE4CPPag?t=6m22s)
-Part 2: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Final Boss/End of Game - Part 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XvEhxR_8bw)
-Part 3: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - Final Boss/End of Game - Part 4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gi5irLadIY)

2. The Legend of Zelda: Windwaker ~ GCN
- Zelda Wind Waker 59- Final Boss- Ganondorf - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbBHeGHuGCs)

3. Portal 2 ~ PC
- Portal 2: Final Boss, Ending, Credits Song [HD] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBCE539v2JM)

4. Resident Evil 5 (Minus the Final Boss Fight With Wesker) ~ 360
-Part 1: Resident Evil 5 final boss (part 1) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHGgQ8lP3tk&feature=related)
-Part 2: Resident Evil 5 Endboss and Ending (PC HD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ0h9Ad6xgo)

5. Zelda II: The Adventure of Link ~ NES
- Zelda 2: Adventure of Link -- Ending -- 0 cont/saves - YouTube (http://youtu.be/GzXW_kQdGnQ?t=1m29s)

Mass Effect 3

Well, I suppose we gotta start somewhere. . .

Dead Space
Max Payne 3
Red Dead Redemption
Diablo II
Resident Evil 5

Super Mario Bros. Puts a tear in my eye every time.

I think the ending of The Lost Levels deserves a tear from anyone who can complete it. Then it has the audacity to tell you to try a harder quest. Forget that.

I think the ending of The Lost Levels deserves a tear from anyone who can complete it. Then it has the audacity to tell you to try a harder quest. Forget that.

manly and RAGE tears were shed.
many, MANY tears

Mass Effect 3

Oh come on... Mass Effect 3's ending/s both the original and extended endings were utter rubbish. Not going into details here as I don't want to spoil them... but unless BioWare does something great with Dragon Age III, BioWare's going down the drain!

Back to topic... and not in order...

Breath of Fire II (when your Town can fly)
Final Fantasy VIII
Dragon Age Origins/Awakening
Saints Row 2
Grand Theft Auto San Andreas

Oh come on... Mass Effect 3's ending/s both the original and extended endings were utter rubbish. Not going into details here as I don't want to spoil them... but unless BioWare does something great with Dragon Age III, BioWare's going down the drain!

Back to topic... and not in order...

Breath of Fire II (when your Town can fly)
Final Fantasy VIII
Dragon Age Origins/Awakening
Saints Row 2
Grand Theft Auto San Andreas

You know that he is just shitposting right?

Yeah... just sick of all the fawning over BioWare now that the Extended Endings have been out and people saying how great a company BioWare is for listening to the fans. They already are nerfing the mp mode because of the complainers and whiners, and imo, David Gaider and his team are under heavy scrutiny by BioWare and EA to ensure Dragon Age III delivers... and not get the same furore that Mass Effect 3 got...

The general consensus on Facepunch is that the endings still suck, I imagine /v/ and /vg/ are still fuming, and everyone I have talked to really don't like the expanded endings.

What do you mean nerfing the MP mode?

Related: Extended Cut Endings - Mass Effect 3 Wiki Guide - IGN (http://www.ign.com/wikis/mass-effect-3/Extended_Cut_Endings)


You know that he is just shitposting right?

Also; She. The name is HeadphonesGIRL. Not like it matters much. She at least made a response, despite the obvious sarcasm.

Even though I haven't played the games, I really don't see what the big deal is. It's just an ending to a game. Whether it ends good or not is at the discretion of the team.

I'm pretty sure that's an alt of TK.

I can't think of many awesome game endings, since just the satisfaction of winning is memorable enough to me.

1. Earthbound. You spend so much time getting to the end, with unbelievably hard random encounters, with the craziest final boss in RPG history that I know of, and it ends the only way it can (without pissing the player off): a trek down memory lane that you can control. You could go anywhere you want, and see all the differences and stuff that occurred, and see how it wrapped-up other characters' story lines. You take your girlfriend home, and you get treated to a collage of pictures taken throughout the game. It even sets up the sequel that would happen years later. This is the ONE ending that I believe payed off the most.

2. Zelda 2: Adventures of Link. You get the princess in the end, and when the curtains fall, you know it's more than a kiss (in my mind, LOL!). Made all the bullshit before it worth it. I remember the first time I beat that game, it took me three months, and I nearly gave up several times.

3. Star Fox. The speech at the end sent shivers down my spine. Throughout the game, characters talked in a garbled language, using a picture box and text to decipher what they were saying. Then at the end, the two most important characters spoke, without text and in English. Also, the bestiary part was pretty cool, and the music was awesome.

4. Intelligent Qube. I won't explain why, you just have to beat that game. It's a puzzle game with one twist, and giving it away will spoil the one cool thing about it. Came out of nowhere, but I loved it.

5. Final Fantasy VI. Really, any FF game past III had a cool ending, but VI's was special to me, since it was the first video game I played for the story, more than the gameplay. The ending was neat showing off each character, and the other stuff at the end. The music was also pretty epic.

It's TK. Nice try Maxx :-*

The general consensus on Facepunch is that the endings still suck, I imagine /v/ and /vg/ are still fuming, and everyone I have talked to really don't like the expanded endings.

Yet on almost every other forum I've been to, people are raving about how great the endings are/they make sense now/etc etc... TBH, I didn't like any of them, as they are forcing you to choose from 4 bad endings which my Shepard would never choose. Casey Hudson (that lying sack of shit) said that we'd get 16 endings... well... WHERE ARE THE OTHER 12 YOU EGOMANICAL GIT!


What do you mean nerfing the MP mode?

BioWare, due to all the whiners and complainers, have nerfed several aspects of the mp. Geth Infiltrators and Engineers, who are already nerfed (in a sense) when they use Hunter Mode... now suffer more penalties to it. The recent Krysae Sniper Rifle has been nerfed so while it's still powerful, it's no where near what it was initially... And then on Tuesday, Infiltrators felt BioWare's wrath, with Tactical Cloak being nerfed as well (both damage wise with weapons and tech abilities but also duration).

What's next? Vanguards Biotic Charge and Nova? Vorchas Flamer? Krogans Carnage? Cerberus Adept and Vanguard Smash and Lash? BioWare will probably end up nerfing everything... "Let's nerf it all, turn it into a poor man's MW3 with no PVP and no biotics or tech abilites, over power Cerberus, Reapers and Geth and throw the fans into it! That'll teach them to complain!"

Cerberus was the weakest force... but they've been upgraded as have the Geth... leaving the Reaper forces as the slightly weaker force... IMO, BioWare has no idea what they're doing now, as SWTOR is having problems as well apparently. I wouldn't want to be David Gaider or a member of his team at BioWare now... as they'll be under heavy scrutiny by Ray Myzuka and BioWare... but also their overlords EA, to make sure the same debacle with Mass Effect 3 doesn't happen with Dragon Age III (though from what's been released about what they've done so far... I think DAIII will be BioWare's FINAL Fantasy...)

Yeah... just sick of all the fawning over BioWare now that the Extended Endings have been out and people saying how great a company BioWare is for listening to the fans. They already are nerfing the mp mode because of the complainers and whiners, and imo, David Gaider and his team are under heavy scrutiny by BioWare and EA to ensure Dragon Age III delivers... and not get the same furore that Mass Effect 3 got...

What crowds do you hang around? The fuckin' Bioware boards? Everywhere I've been (/v/, /vg/, SA, neogaf, twitch.tv chats during livestreams of the endings, comments on giant bomb), people have been moaning a fucking ton about how shitty the ending still is and how the work they did was kinda lazy. That motion comic shit? No thanks.

Forget Bioware, they're trash. They haven't written anything good since the first Dragon Age.
Mass Effect 2? Poop.
Dragon Age 2? Turds.
The Old Republic? Doo-doo.
Mass Effect 3? Shit!!

Also learn how to tell when a person is being sarcastic or making a joke your cover-up wasn't very successful!!!!

What crowds do you hang around? The fuckin' Bioware boards? Everywhere I've been (/v/, /vg/, SA, neogaf, twitch.tv chats during livestreams of the endings, comments on giant bomb), people have been moaning a fucking ton about how shitty the ending still is and how the work they did was kinda lazy. That motion comic shit? No thanks.

Playfire.com, Final Fantasy Society, Xbox Official Forums and BioWare Social Network (I would add Youtube, but there's too many assholes there as is)... I agree the endings were garbage and I didn't like them one bit. Just exasperated by all this shit...


Forget Bioware, they're trash. They haven't written anything good since the first Dragon Age.
Mass Effect 2? Poop.
Dragon Age 2? Turds.
The Old Republic? Doo-doo.
Mass Effect 3? Shit!!

I prefer Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic over Mass Effect... just personal preference.


Also learn how to tell when a person is being sarcastic or making a joke your cover-up wasn't very successful!!!!

Wasn't trying to cover it up... After having people go on and on and on about it I.. ahh fuck it. I'm not explaining myself to you (or anyone else) anymore... I wash my hands of Mass Effect and the inane fanbase that goes with it.

It's TK. Nice try Maxx :-*

I must've missed something as I have no idea who TK is.

1. Final Fantasy IV
2. Final Fantasy VI
3. Final Fantasy VII
4. Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
5. Disgaea 2: Cursed Memories

2. Zelda 2: Adventures of Link. You get the princess in the end, and when the curtains fall, you know it's more than a kiss (in my mind, LOL!). Made all the bullshit before it worth it. I remember the first time I beat that game, it took me three months, and I nearly gave up several times.


This. It about sums up my feelings for the ending of Zelda II. Though it didn't take me three months to complete, that final temple beat the crap out of me. Thank God that ShadowLink was easy as he was. Despite that fact, the trek to get to that point was incredibly grueling. Because of the great challenge, defeating ShadowLink was all the more rewarding when a flood of relief comes over you. Not that the game was bad by any means, because it was a great game that fleshed out Link even moreso than it's predecessor. Relief over the long and difficult journey that had been completed. Forget that second quest though.

1. Final Fantasy VII - I know I know... Sue me.

2. Metal Gear Solid - Meryl's Ending particularily

3. Vagrant Story - You can feel Sydney's Gratitude for Ashley and how he leaves in peace with a last speech with his father climaxing in a very dramatic picture.

4. Final Fantasy Tactics - The completion of the Circle on the development of the characters Ideals and how it turns out for them.

5. Super Castlevania IV - What a Platfomer? Really? YES REALLY. After a triumphant picture of Simon as the Castle crumbles. The Credits Roll with a slow paced song filled with nostalgia as images of your journey through the game Froze for you to see.


Honorable Mentions:

Chrono Trigger - The Finale at the Millenial Fair in any of it's incarnations. Plus the Cutscene added for the PSX version where you see the Marriage of Chrono & Marle, Glenn(Frog) Turned back to Human and Lucca finding in the woods a Baby Kid that links it directly to Chrono Cross.

Parasite Eve - One of the best Downer Endings that I ever saw and that it literally put my heart on the throat.

Suikoden I - The 108 Stars ending and epilogue got me teary eyed. I really loved every bit of it.

Silent Hill 2 - Seriously ANY of the Endings (not Including Dog or UFO). That letter is a stab on the belly and each verse is a twist of the knife.

Metal Gear Solid 3 - My relationship with this game is very hard. I hate a lot of it, as it turned to be very dissapointing in a lot of ways to me. But I Appreciate a lot of things that they were trying to do. Balancing I dislike it more than I like it. But from the Final Boss battle till the Ending Cutscenes (Skippin the Flying chairs & Ocelot's Bullshitery on the Plane). This ending nails it and nails it so hard that you could say it almost redeemed the game for me. Not that it really accomplished that. But it was really that close. So with all that been said, people who genuinely like this game will be more than satisfied with the ending.

I prefer Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic over Mass Effect... just personal preference.

I said The Old Republic, not Knights of the Old Republic. TOR, not KOTOR. Note that KOTOR came out before DA:O, so it wouldn't have made any sense if I had listed it either!!

I said The Old Republic, not Knights of the Old Republic. TOR, not KOTOR. Note that KOTOR came out before DA:O, so it wouldn't have made any sense if I had listed it either!!

Yes I know. You listed some of BioWare's latest games, so I thought I'd list two of their earlier games as well, which are far better than what they've done since (including Dragon Age: Origins).

I listed everything they've done since DA:O ya fuckin' poo-brain. Christ.

I listed everything they've done since DA:O ya fuckin' poo-brain. Christ.

After they've whored themselves out by becoming EA's bitch, ya fuck stick. Christ.

What does that have to do with anything? I said everything they've done after DA:O hasn't been as good as the things they did before DA:O. You fucked up and said something about KOTOR and then tried to cover up I dunno you're dumb.

Why they're worse now really has nothing to do with anything I've been saying.

What does that have to do with anything? I said everything they've done after DA:O hasn't been as good as the things they did before DA:O. You fucked up and said something about KOTOR and then tried to cover up I dunno you're dumb.

Why they're worse now really has nothing to do with anything I've been saying.

How about ever since they've been with EA the quality of their games has fallen dramatically. DA: O is just KOTOR in a fantasy setting, that's it. No new innovation etc... just the same cake with a different icing. All I said about KOTOR is that I prefer that over Mass Effect, you're the one who 'saw' something there when there wasn't. Get your eyes checked Stevie.

Why they're worse now, is paramount to everything they've done since the damn merger (The whole Mass Effect 3 debacle is proof that something is seriously fucked up in that company). I wasn't the one who came into a thread and attacked someone about something which had nothing to do with the damn topic in the first place. Grow up kid.

the internet, the place of interpersonal misinterpretations due to serious bickerings.

now for my paltry answers.

-castlevania 64 - nothing special, just a castle collapsing & watching it crumble with a pretty girl that came out of nowhere, seems to linger in my memory for some reason, like my subconscious choose to remember the ending by photographic memory, the game i thought was excellent at the time so it shouldn't be forgotten.

-FFX - at the time, i hated it, today, i still hate it, but the reason why it's one of my favorites is because... it's one of those games that project truth like how it is.. i'm sure people didn't want the 'dream' of playing FFX to end, but it has to, and the main fictional character believes this so in his circumstances. a lot of people digress, but they know deep down, all good things must come to an end, thus this is how they will remember FFX... then again, miss yuna who doesn't want it to end, gets her own game, FFX-2 which most people graciously dislike.

Command & Conquer - Red Alert - both soviets & allies, beautiful stuff, who could forget those classics. allies is triumphant, and soviets, well, abrupt for some lead roles particularly due to many backstabbings, the leader is backstabbed, the backstabber gets backstabbed, and KANE is left standing. may his legacy remain solidified due to this... ending.

Super Mario Bros - it blew my mind as a child to beat super mario bros without seeing a mushroom tell me 'sorry, the princess is in another castle', yet only to find the princess & realized i've beat the game i spent many hours on. that singular exhilirating moment helps solidify a special memory, almost on the complete opposite of finding out santa doesn't exist.

I can only think of a few memorable (in my eyes) endings.

Silent Hill 2 - "In Water" ending. Although Guy Cihi (voice of James) says he believes the "Leave" ending is the true (because it's the one he would do) one but I noticed depending on who is playing the game they prefer a certain ending because it's one they can sorta relate to or it's something that player would do themselves. Or something.

Lost Odyssey - One of the endings where I couldn't think of anything to make it better honestly. I think it was an amazing game already and had a perfect ending to close the story with.

Final Fantasy X - Now I wouldn't say it's the greatest ending I've seen but what makes this stand out as memorable was just I thought it was sad given the circumstances of it all.

Fatal Frame/Project Zero - Now I haven't beaten the second one yet and didn't know about the multiple endings of the third (hell, I wouldn't know if the first one had multiple endings) but I thought the ending of the first game in this super awesome series was pretty good. Just to clarify in case there are more endings in it that I never knew about, it was the one where he stayed behind so she wouldn't be alone. Those who played the game know what I'm talking about here but I liked it for some reason.

Halo Reach - Although I already knew what was going to happen at the end just because I read the "Fall of Reach" book, but nothing like going out fighting tooth and nail lol. Seems this game had more "emotion" compared to the others if that makes sense.

Kingdom Hearts - Maybe it's memorable because I was in middle school (or first year in high school, can't remember) and was really excited for it to come out but just the way it ended seemed appropriate. It was obvious there was going to have a sequel but it didn't exactly end out of nowhere (hate those kinds of endings).

How about ever since they've been with EA the quality of their games has fallen dramatically. DA: O is just KOTOR in a fantasy setting, that's it. No new innovation etc... just the same cake with a different icing. All I said about KOTOR is that I prefer that over Mass Effect, you're the one who 'saw' something there when there wasn't. Get your eyes checked Stevie.

Why they're worse now, is paramount to everything they've done since the damn merger (The whole Mass Effect 3 debacle is proof that something is seriously fucked up in that company). I wasn't the one who came into a thread and attacked someone about something which had nothing to do with the damn topic in the first place. Grow up kid.
Look, man.

Just listen.

I was saying they've not been the same since DA:O. I don't even particularly like DA:O, but it wasn't as pandering as everything that's come after it at least. It doesn't matter why they're worse - that isn't important. I was just saying now is an odd time to decide Bioware ain't hot shit when they've made many blunders already.

I have no idea why you mentioned KOTOR. It has nothing to do with my point. The original Mass Effect has nothing to do with anything either. Do I have to say it again? The games I listed are everything they've done after DA:O. I was saying all those games I listed aren't as good as DA:O or anything before it. I wasn't saying DA:O was great. I wasn't saying it was better than KOTOR.

Why would you say you prefer KOTOR to Mass Effect when I was talking about the games they made after DA:O? Do you realise that makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I said? You probably don't.

I'm saying the same thing over and over because I feel like I'm talking to a child here.

Maybe it'll make sense to you if I present a parallel situation.

Person A: Forget about Final Fantasy, those games haven't been very good since FFX (this is just an example it doesn't reflect my opinion!!!)
Person B: Personally, I prefer FF(something before FFX) to FF(something after FFX)

Do you see how that doesn't make any sense yet??? Person B is saying what Person A is saying without realising it because Person B isn't very bright.

You're Person B.

Point of the matter is... you came into this thread and attacked myself and didn't contribute to the thread topic. At least I did and I didn't resort to attacking another member. I honestly don't give a flying fuck what you say, as anything you post means absolutely ZERO to me. You missed the point of my response in any case: Saying I prefer Knights of the Old Republic over Mass Effect meant that I prefer what BioWare did BEFORE the merger and the examples you stated. Mass Effect, like Dragon Age: Origins is just the same cake as Knights of the Old Republic, just different icing.

In any event, done talking to the orphanage. Believe whatever you want, makes no difference to me... and at least I didn't derail a thread from it's topic like you did.

I'm person B? Psssh... more like Person Who Doesn't Give A Flying Fuck About What You Have To Say.

I don't know what all this fuss is about. I loved the ending of Mass Effect 3 because it finally answered the question... "what are the reapers?" and gave the player a major choice to make that creates your own unique ending to the series.

I also thought Dragon Age 2, despite being hugely dumbed down in the gameplay department actually had the best story Bioware has written in ages and I had a good time playing it just for that. The story and characters were overall better than DAO in my opinion. The only DAO characters I really liked were Leliana and the dog. Everybody else was utterly generic. Some people seemed to think Alistair was cool but I thought he was a douche and then some people seemed to think Anders was the shit but I thought he was an imitation of Alistair. Although at least the writing in DAO was fine it was just generic. Awakening pissed me off half the time. HELLO I AM NATHANIEL I HATE YOU SO MUCH BECAUSE YOU KILLED MY UNCLE WHO BETRAYED AND MURDERED YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY IN COLD BLOOD AND THEN HELPED SOMEONE COMMIT TREASON BY MURDERING THE KING AND FORCIBLY TAKE OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY

ALSO ALSO I really enjoyed most things about ME3. The ending really did kill any future enthusiasm I would have had for the series and that makes me pretty sad, but I'm not going to pretend I didn't love the shit out of all three games. Bioware still has a lot of good ideas in there, they're just being put through the EA shit filter most likely. It's too bad.

With all that said, I do want to just thank Darth Revan for getting my gender right. I can't believe how many people keep thinking I'm a boy just because I like video games when it says RIGHT IN MY NAME that I'm a girl. >_< (this is me in my avatar)



---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------


Point of the matter is... you came into this thread and attacked myself and didn't contribute to the thread topic. At least I did and I didn't resort to attacking another member. I honestly don't give a flying fuck what you say, as anything you post means absolutely ZERO to me. You missed the point of my response in any case: Saying I prefer Knights of the Old Republic over Mass Effect meant that I prefer what BioWare did BEFORE the merger and the examples you stated. Mass Effect, like Dragon Age: Origins is just the same cake as Knights of the Old Republic, just different icing.

In any event, done talking to the orphanage. Believe whatever you want, makes no difference to me... and at least I didn't derail a thread from it's topic like you did.

I'm person B? Psssh... more like Person Who Doesn't Give A Flying Fuck About What You Have To Say.

methinks you doth protest too much.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------

ok I'm done now

I think the thing that confused people was that you said right there in your last post that ME3's ending killed any future enthusiasm you would have for the series. Its hard to square that one with you including it as your only initial choice for 'Best Game Ending'. I confess that I thought you were joking when you posted it, because of how badly the game's ending has been received by just about everyone. Myself, I like the ending up to and including TIM's scene on the Citadel. After that... it sucks.

To go slightly off-topic, I do agree that DA2 was much better than people say, even if I don't share your feelings about DA:O (I liked both parties just fine with a few exceptions here and there). I did think that the final act aside, DA2 actually has as you say, one of the best stories that Bioware have done. The final act just feels rushed though, and the various character arcs all resolve pretty tamely. My main problem was that the Mage/Templar just isn't anywhere near as interesting as Bioware seem to think it is. The first two Acts that focus on city life and politics, and the Qunari/Chantry feud are far, far better.


As for best endings...hmm. I'd have to give it some proper thought, but FF8, FF12 and FF13-2 all have excellent endings. Outside of FF, and despite the lame warthog sequence, I thought the end of Halo 3 was beautiful, understated and a fitting end to the series. Again, despite a terrible final battle, Fable 2 had a very touching and haunting ending with the 'A Perfect World' sequence, as the hero gets to live one final day with his sister again, potentially staying forever.

I think the thing that confused people was that you said right there in your last post that ME3's ending killed any future enthusiasm you would have for the series.

SHIT. I never meant to do that

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

I totally forgot about something that was unfair in my analysis of DAO vs DA2. In my opinion the biggest crime committed by DA2 wasn't the stupidly dumbed down combat or the unbelievable reuse of the same boring ass maps, although both of those things were really disappointing. It was Isabella. Isabella is the one thing character and story related that DAO did way better than DA2. In the first game she was a really cool character because everything about her was subtle and understated. Her voice actress got that completely and gave you this tingly hair-raising feeling while you were talking to her because you knew this lady is smart as shit and vaguely crazy and not to be fucked with. DA2's Isabella was the worst character in the game, a generic and boring sex pot pirate stereotype with all the subtlety of a porno.

I still think DA2 had way more interesting characters overall but holy shit fuck what they did to Isabella I hate that.

I share your views on Isabella for the most part (I also much prefer her from the first game), but I did really like her role in Act 2. 'To Catch a Thief' was (along with the end of Act 2 which follows straight after), one of the best parts of DA2.

Also, don't be too hard on them for the reused maps. Its always a trade off between reusing content and having hardly any content. They simply couldn't afford to make lots of lots of different environments. KOTOR, ME1 and DA:O reused lots of maps, and Jade Empire which didn't do that, wasn't very big. Neither is very satisfying, but having lots of different, great looking and varied maps is only possible with financial backing from people like EA. EA's huge deep pockets full of cash allowed them to do this to a certain extent on ME2, but that required enormous expenditure, on an unsustainable scale (as it would require every game to be as huge a hit as ME2 was - SWOTR is even now proving the folly of just splashing cash around).

And whilst we're on the subject, DA2's ending... was not good, to put it diplomatically.

That's crazy talk. None of the games you mentioned that came out before DA2 reused maps to nearly the same extent that DA2 did, and all of them were after EA had bought out Bioware. Also lots of games without the backing of a company like EA don't reuse maps. Hell, even recent examples like Fallout: New Vegas. There were no reused environments in that game and it is bigger in every way than DA2 while being developed on a limited budget. There are lots of examples, that's just the first that comes to my mind since it's the most brilliant game I've played in years.

The reason why DA2 reused so many maps isn't because of a lack of funding, it's because the game was rushed out way faster than it should have been.

Well, I don't know how you could possibly have missed it, but ME 1 uses the *exact* same maps on all the ships in the game. All the bases on the planets have the *exact* same map, all the underground bunkers have the *exact* same map. Don't take my word for it - go play it. And that was before EA took over Bioware. DAO also reuses maps, but does it in a clever way, redressing them and cutting off parts of the maps, so you can't immediatly tell that they are the same. Again, don't take my word for it - just look it up. Most of the world encounters take place on the same 4-5 maps. DA'2 only crime was in making it so obvious that is was using the same maps.

Reusing environments is all about cost cutting - simple as that. Its the same in theatre, movies, TV etc. You either have lots of similar environments or relatively few environments that are different. Its like that in all games now, because they are so expensive to make. Look at ME3 - it has like, 5 actual side missions with their own (small) levels and the rest are just the multiplayer maps (which are also very small). It also has just the one hub world (the Citadel).

And using Fallout: New Vegas as an example from a technical gamecraft point is bizarre. I *love* that game, but the lack of money was felt in the shoddy amount of bugs and glitches. Obsidian are my favourite games developer, precisely because they prize ambition and a sense of scale over all else. They didn't have the money, time or staff to make such a huge game run the way they wanted it to, which has caused the game to suffer in the eyes of many, who can't take all the crashes and glitches. But they made the right call IMO, putting the money into creating great locations, characters and story. That game is a mess in many regards, and barely works at all sometimes, but that's the tradeoff you have to make.

The Bethesda games (as they still had a hand in producing New Vegas) are the defintion of deluxe, big budget affairs. Even (but their standards) a reletively low budget game like New Vegas, is still vastly most expensive that most developers could manage. If you could make big games that looked and controlled great, with endless amounts of varied and interesting locations and content, without breaking the bank, then everyone would do it. But you can't, so they don't.

While we are on the Endings Discussion.

@Vrykolas.

The ending of KOTOR 2 is somewhat hard for me to put it. I love the Final Conversation. But the forced Conclusion and it's poor presentation leave me with some bad taste.
And now I know that this game is broken everywhere and that it was rushed.

But even with an ending like that. Do you think with a more proper Presentation would've worked well?

Proper presentation I mean a good Cinematic and Climatic End Sequence, in the way of a Final Fantasy game gives you.

And using Fallout: New Vegas as an example from a technical gamecraft point is bizarre. I *love* that game, but the lack of money was felt in the shoddy amount of bugs and glitches. Obsidian are my favourite games developer, precisely because they prize ambition and a sense of scale over all else. They didn't have the money, time or staff to make such a huge game run the way they wanted it to, which has caused the game to suffer in the eyes of many, who can't take all the crashes and glitches. But they made the right call IMO, putting the money into creating great locations, characters and story. That game is a mess in many regards, and barely works at all sometimes, but that's the tradeoff you have to make.

The Bethesda games (as they still had a hand in producing New Vegas) are the defintion of deluxe, big budget affairs. Even (but their standards) a reletively low budget game like New Vegas, is still vastly most expensive that most developers could manage. If you could make big games that looked and controlled great, with endless amounts of varied and interesting locations and content, without breaking the bank, then everyone would do it. But you can't, so they don't.

These two paragraphs don't make sense to me together. Was the game on a low budget or wasn't it?

I have no idea what the actual budgets are between NV and DA2, but I have a hard time believing there was a drastic difference. So much of what skyrockets the development costs of modern games is voice acting, cinematics, marketing and licensing. I seriously doubt that the cost relative to these things of creating new maps in an already built game engine can be very big. Fans do it on their own time. It's easy.

I'm aware of the reuse of maps in Bioware games prior to DA2, but that game did it worse than any of the others. DAO had more world map and dungeon maps despite reusing some and it had a variety of town locations, multiple deep roads maps, and many highly varied dungeon maps -- compare, for example, the ruins you enter after going through the forest the elf woods (itself a unique map) to absolutely anything in DA2. Or the HUGE dungeon that had that weird dragon cult at the top of the secluded mountain town. It's really quite pathetic when you think about how limited DA2's environments were compared to this.

Really, it's one of the things the game is infamous for. There's a reason for that.

KOTOR 2's whole final section was supposed to be very different. Its impossible to comment on it really, considering that so little of it managed to get finished. The whole issue of where your crew suddenly went, what happens with GOTO and the remote, plus the extremely shortened resolution of all the sequences involving the 3 Sith Lords (Nihilous particularly) means that any comment is futile. Enough great content from the fight with Atris, the basic idea behind the attack on the Citadel and boarding the Ravager with the Mandalorians, and the return to Malachor V, mean that the story was there waiting to be told. But Lucasarts screwing Obsidian over the deadline prevented them from being able to tell it.

Its like an author reaching the last third of his book, then being rung up by his publisher saying it has to be finished in a couple of hours. There's no way the author would be able to do anything more than summarise what he was planning to do. Its like what happened to Babylon 5 in its fourth season, when JMS was told he wouldn't be getting his promised 5th year, squeezed everything into the 4th season, ruining the pacing and credibility completely (and just to cap it off, was then given the extra year for which he had no content left, and it was appalling). Artists cannot be expected to deliver their best work under these kinds of pressures. If they miss deadlines, then you have to say tough luck, because the industry has to turn a profit, and publishers can't delay forever, but when deadlines get moved forwards and unreasonable demands are made, then you have to cry foul on the publishers.

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Mass Effect 1 was released many years after Jade Empire, and with different staff working on it. The principal staff involved were those who worked on KOTOR 1, which was many, many years before. And yet even with all that time, ME1 recycled environments just as badly as DA2 (you claim DA2 is a worse offender, but ME1 is just as bad for it, as literally every side mission on every planet recycles those same maps - they don't dress the scenery differently in most cases, or lock certain doors etc. Its just the exact same layout.) The reason was simple - because they were spending the money they had (which was before EA came along), on graphics, voice actors etc. They needed to cut costs somewhere, and the maps were the easiest way to do it.

And people say many things about DA2, but you yourself are proof that just because everyone says it, doesn't make it true. People hate DA2 and won't concede that it does anything right at all. You have rightly pointed out the story is good, but most people just won't have it. Yes, the recycled environments are annoying, but Bioware figured that since they've done it many times in the past, why would anyone complain now? They didn't raise much fuss about it in ME1 or DA:O, after all. I already agreed that they don't dress the scenery anywhere near as well, but other than that, I don't really mind. Costs have to be cut somewhere - taking extra years to develop games costs huge amounts. This is one of those situations where people pointing to this, that or the other as *the* cause of a game's failure miss the point. It didn't fail because of any one aspect. People simply didn't like it, and they looked for reasons why after they decided this. The game was trashed for months and months *before* it came out, such was the mood of pessimism surrounding the game for one reason or another. When people don't like a game, they find some easy soundbite reasons that they can keep throwing out, and no matter how many times people argue against them, they just go right back and churn them out again. 'The story is crap/the characters are all rubbish' etc, when that isn't true.

I'm not saying the environments weren't reused far too much - just that Bioware had form for this before, and it was never an issue before because people liked the earlier games and ignored it. They didn't like DA2, so they picked apart everything, when the truth is that even if all those problems were fixed, they still wouldn't like it, because it just wasn't the game they wanted it to be (i.e it doesn't follow the Bioware formula, and is the only game not to follow the same exact pattern of story progression). DA2's problems are much deeper than the combat system and the recycled environs - its that it doesn't give the standard 'You are the most amazing person ever and can do whatever you want' experience, it doesn't let you globe trot free from rules and cares with your secret society access all card (Jedi, Spectres, Spirit Monk, Grey Warden etc etc etc).

Bioware's more irrational fans want and feel entitled to a particular kind of wish fulfillment experience, and when they don't get it (like the end of Mass Effect 3) they throw a raging tantrum, that make all fans of Bioware's games look bad. So what I'm basically saying is a) modern games development makes cost cutting a reality for all but the most heavily financed games and b) including more varied environments, giving more money and development time etc wouldn't have improved the game's reputation, because it deviates too much from what the hardcore fans want from a Bioware game.

The difference between the map reuse in DA2 and in other Bioware games is that although it always happened, past games typically had lots of other maps that were actually unique. DA2 had the city of kirkwall and then reused maps, and that was it. It wasn't just that maps were reused a lot it was that no matter where you went, all you EVER saw was the same maps, over and over again. You're confusing number of maps reused with instances of map reuse. It's the latter that was so egregious in DA2. I really don't see how you can say that cost cutting was a good excuse for that. If ME1 is your counter example, you yourself already explained why it doesn't explain away the laziness of DA2's environments which is that that game was made without EA funding.

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DA2's problems are much deeper than the combat system and the recycled environs - its that it doesn't give the standard 'You are the most amazing person ever and can do whatever you want' experience, it doesn't let you globe trot free from rules and cares with your secret society access all card (Jedi, Spectres, Spirit Monk, Grey Warden etc etc etc).


I couldn't possibly disagree more. Those things you just mentioned are part of what I liked about the game. I am tired of being the most amazing person ever, I am tired of being the savior of the world who belongs to some super group. I want to have different experiences in role playing games, and DA2 mostly gave me that. Even at the end I was only saving Kirkwall, not the world, and for most of the game I wasn't even trying to do that, which was very refreshing.

I don't think those are its problems at all. I think the combat and the rehashed environments are exactly what was wrong with it, or rather they are instances of what the true problem was, which is that the game was rushed, rushed, rushed. It was shoved out so fast that it couldn't possibly have had the level of polish it should have, and everything that felt gimped about it (the combat and the limited environments are just the most obvious examples) was basically just a result of it not having any time and care spent on it. I don't think money was the issue, or if it was that still translates to the game being rushed and not properly attended to.

You misunderstand - I am in complete and total agreement with you over this. When I outlined DA2's 'problems', I didn't say that I considered them problems (I believe the complete opposite and as you say, its one of the main reasons I prefer DA2 to all of Bioware's other recent games) - I meant they were the problems that the vast majority of Bioware fans who hated the game, had. The further away we get from when the game was released, and considering the game was not well received, the less people care about the facts. Various sound bite criticisms that are not technically speaking untrue (the recycled environments etc) have been mixed in with patently untrue but also generally accepted statements like poor story, dull characters etc, and are held up as the reasons why the game is (in their opinions) the worst game Bioware has ever made (as that is pretty much how it regarded by most).

My point was these criticisms, both the true ones and the completely subjective and unfairly dismissive ones, are just window dressing next to the real issues they had with the game, which I outlined in my previous post. These criticisms are the kinds of things that only surface when people have taken against a game. Most games have some technical elements or aspects of gameplay/visuals/glitches etc that are less than ideal. But people overlook them in games they like, and pick over every last fault in games they don't like. And they are much easier to drop into threads and be understood, than going into why the game doesn't deliver the experience, the tone or approach that you were hoping for.

I found DA2's focus on more down to earth matters, and more realistic problems to be extremely refreshing. I'd been saying for years that Bioware's main plots were poor, letting their games down with how over familiar they were. When the developers of DA2 said that their core principle would be 'No Ancient Evil Returns' and no secret orders that your character belongs to etc, I was massively excited for the game. I agreed 100% with them that just doing another Blight or having 2 Archdemons this time would have been ridiculous. DA2 took the right approach, but because the fans didn't get their usual ego massaging, globe trotting, VIP treatment wherever you go, world revolving around your character etc etc fix, they didn't like it.

Which means sadly, that future Bioware games will just revert to type, and it'll be the same formula again and again and again. Intro that establishes crisis, first settlement to get your bearings, several stages of gathering items/personnel for the main quest, a 'crisis' level where someone dies or you suffer some kind of major defeat, and finally the home stretch where you go to the enemy Death Star or your Death Star goes to them etc etc. It applies to all of their games since KOTOR, except DA2. And because of the adverse reaction to DA2, it'll apply to all their future games as well.

As for the funding issue, DA2's approach means it cannot do what the earlier games did with regard to recycled maps (i.e have main plot areas that are unique and tell a self contained chunk of story) in quite the same way. DA2's story arcs are spread over dozens of quests that slowly weave small elements of semi and unrelated stories, to eventually arrive at the end of the Act when it all comes together (sometimes even later than that). Producing unique areas for every location and quest that has something of relevance to the ongoing plot would be outrageously expensive (it would essentially be giving all the side quests the same amount of money and development time as the main quests, because the distinction between main and side quests in DA2 is very blurry - every quest is important, but they eventually build up to reach a point of even more critical importance).

You are visiting so many more locations, engaging in so many different plot strands and quests that bear relevance to the overall plot, that to deliver unique and interesting locations for them all is logistically impossible, without investing the kind of time and money that no publisher would ever agree to. Imagine that instead of just going to Noveria for example, you had to go to the various worlds and complete at least some of those side quests, building up knowledge and gathering info on people and leads before going there. It would mean that people would be much more acutely aware of the recycled maps. You're not wrong therefore, that DA2's approach draws more attention to the recycled maps, but I still say it is an unavoidable byproduct of them approaching the storytelling in that way.